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Yeah, well, exactly! It's all just intangibles at this point of the game anyway. But what point are you exactly trying to make? That if, in the highly unlikely chance that 2020 becomes a battle of the Americas, that the competition would be too tough for Toronto and it shouldn't even think about it? I just reckon, if push came to shove and the unlikely happened, Toronto would have as good a shot as any - to the point of being prety well guaranteed to be short list material - and might as well go for it if it wanted. You take your opportunities when they come, they may never come again or only after a long, long time.

Typical bloody GamesBids - here we are arguing about hypothetical bidders for a highly fluid Summer Olympiad race, before the race preceding it has even been decided, in a thread about the Pan-Ams.

;)

I'm not trying to make any point other than state the probabilites in the unlikely event that you pointed out both Chicago & Rio lost 2016. Again, I'm also not trying to say that Toronto shouldn't run if the opportunity arose. Just stating the more than likely scenarios that it wouldn't be a cakewalk for Toronto, considering the other applicants that could run, too. Again, just commenting to an Olympic 2020 bid question that was posed in this Pam Ams 2015 thread.

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I have been offered a position as Assistant Venue Press Operations Manager with TO2015 for the Games!

After a day off I was able to reflect on my experience with the games. I was very priviliged to work with the organization and this opened my eyes to what I want to do moving forward. From meeting gre

Cue a Gamesbids Article saying "Bach encourages city of Toronto to bid for the Olympics, says they would host a fantastic Games!"

I'm not trying to make any point other than state the probabilites in the unlikely event that you pointed out both Chicago & Rio lost 2016. Again, I'm also not trying to say that Toronto shouldn't run if the opportunity arose. Just stating the more than likely scenarios that it wouldn't be a cakewalk for Toronto, considering the other applicants that could run, too. Again, just commenting to an Olympic 2020 bid question that was posed in this Pam Ams 2015 thread.

I think either Chicago or Rio will win the 2016 Games. I think 2028 is the year Toronto might finally be awarded.

However, if Chicago losses I definitely see Toronto putting forth a bid for 2020. Roltel makes a strong valid point that if the opportunity arose and the timing right the city will go for it.

The COC already have expressed interest in a Toronto 2020 Olympic bid publicly in a Press Release a couple years back.

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Toronto should bid for Olympics again, Pan Am chair says

Toronto — Globe and Mail Update

Last updated on Monday, Aug. 31, 2009 07:34PM EDT

http://www.theglobeandmail.com/news/nation...article1271070/

The head of the Pan Am Games evaluation commission said Monday Toronto's bid for the 2015 event meets all the requirements, and that the city would do well to apply again to host the Olympic Games.

Dr. Julio Cesar Maglione, the commission chair, spoke at the end of a marathon two-day, 18-stop, 24-venue tour of existing and planned facility sites through Toronto, Hamilton and Niagara.

"We have no doubt you have (met) all the conditions to host an excellent Games," he said. "This city could not only host the Pan Am Games but it could also host the Olympic Games as well."

He called Toronto 2015's stadiums "top-notch" and praised the planned 40-minute rail link between sites in Toronto and Hamilton.

"It's an honour to have a visit (during) these two days to Toronto," he said at a press conference in the Rogers Centre, which would host baseball games as well as the opening and closing ceremonies.

In Hamilton Monday, the bid committee arrived by GO Train and took a tour of McMaster University’s David Braley Centre, one of the proposed sites. They were joined by David Peterson, former Ontario premier and chair of the Toronto 2015 bid, as well as Michael Chambers, the president of the Canadian Olympic Committee.

"I think we showed off this city and the province to the very best," Mr. Peterson said. "I just want to thank Dr. Maglione and the commission. We've had a wonderful day."

During the two-day visit, the evaluation commission also toured the Air Canada Centre, BMO Field, Roy Thomson Hall, the Direct Energy Centre, and Ricoh Coliseum in Toronto, and took a helicopter ride over water courses in Niagara region that would host rowing and swimming events.

On Monday, they heard presentations from athletes, including rower Marnie McBean, a three-time Olympic gold medalist; cyclist Curt Harnett; and track star Trevino Betty. Jagoda Pike, the former Toronto Star publisher now serving as president of the bid committee, applauded the input of athletes.

“We’re fortunate to have athletes in Canada who are incredibly supportive of our bid for the 2015 Games,” she said in a statement.

Ms. McBean, who retired a decade ago and now works with the Canadian Olympic Committee, told the evaluation committee of her days training and racing as a rower on Niagara's Henley Island course.

"It's a first-class international course. And really, that's what the meeting was about today," Ms. McBean, who believes Toronto 2015 has put together a "phenomenal" bid, said in an interview. "It was sort of giving them a closer look at what the venues are, and the credibility of people like Trevino, Curt and myself coming in and saying, 'yeah, I would race here,' there's a value in that."

Toronto is a finalist along with Bogota, Colombia, and Lima, Peru. A final vote on the host city is expected to be announced in November. In the past two decades, Toronto has twice bid for the Olympics, losing in 1996 to Atlanta and in 2008 to Beijing. Mr. Peterson worked on the 2008 bid, while Mr. Chambers was vice-chairman of Vancouver's successful bid for the 2010 Olympic Games.

The Pan Am Games were last held in Canada in 1999, in Winnipeg. They will next be held in Guadalajara, Mexico, in 2011.

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It's inevitable.I guess most of us assume that Toronto's one of those Summer Olympic hosts in waiting. Just a question of when, rather than if.

There's still a lot of unused land on the portlands that's probably being saved for the Olympic bid. I'm pretty sure the Olympic Stadium, Athlete's Village, Aquatic Centre, Veledrome and various temporary venues will be constructed there.

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I haven't been following this too closely, but what's the point of Toronto hosting the Pan Am games? I'd love to see Toronto host the Olympics, but the Pan Am games are 4th rate. You'd be hard-pressed to find people in the city that actually care about the Pan Am games. I could see why Rio bid and hosted the 2007 Pan Ams, since this was their way of showing the world that they could host world-class events. But this isn't the case for Toronto, and I'm skeptical of any kind of revenue that could be generated from these games. The Pan Am games should go to smaller cities with no chance of hosting the Olympics.

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I haven't been following this too closely, but what's the point of Toronto hosting the Pan Am games? I'd love to see Toronto host the Olympics, but the Pan Am games are 4th rate. You'd be hard-pressed to find people in the city that actually care about the Pan Am games. I could see why Rio bid and hosted the 2007 Pan Ams, since this was their way of showing the world that they could host world-class events. But this isn't the case for Toronto, and I'm skeptical of any kind of revenue that could be generated from these games. The Pan Am games should go to smaller cities with no chance of hosting the Olympics.

Let's not assume that the people who are handing this don't now what they are doing. Toronto has run before and lost, so they should know which issues they should address for a new bid. This issues will be probably dealt with in the PanAm bid and perfected to the Olympics. Some questions that might be raised would be answered with concrete examples of running the PanAm Games instead of simulations and speculation. And, let's not forget the venues that can be reused.

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The site where the Olympic Stadium and rowing course that were proposed as part of Toronto's 2008 bid may be encroached by several new condominium towers and that may interfere with any future Olympic bid.

The land hasn't been sold to condo developers. I doubt any new condo developments will be starting up there soon. The amount of new condo projects has decreased the past year because of this recession. Even the 1 Bloor East Supertall Condo at Bay and Yonge fell through due to the credit crunch.

The land will be there for an Olympic bid.

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GTA confident of its Pan Am bid

Appears to be gathering steam

September 02, 2009

Vanessa Lu

Torstar News Service

http://www.thespec.com/News/Local/article/627765

With rave reviews of its bid to host the Pan Am Games in 2015, the stars may finally be aligning for the GTA to win a coveted spot on the international stage.

Timing, geography and language are in the GTA's favour this November when the 42-member Pan American Sports Organization meets in Mexico to choose the location of the two-week event. The bid includes Hamilton, Burlington and communities to the east of Toronto to make it a regional effort.

* After three consecutive Games in Spanish- or Portuguese-speaking countries, it may be time to move to an English-speaking one.

* With two South American countries competing to host, they could cancel each other out during the first ballot, helping Canada's chances.

* With many direct flights to Pearson and a promise to waive visa requirements for athletes, transportation should be smooth.

With the buzz on the GTA as it competes against Bogota, Colombia, and Lima, Peru, victory would be even sweeter, given the city's also-ran status in past attempts to host the Olympics and world expos.

"Toronto is the front-runner. I don't think there is any doubt of that," said Mike Fennell, president of the Jamaican Olympic Association, though his island has yet to make a final decision on how it will vote. "From what I've seen, Toronto is way above anybody else in terms of their bid."

He rattled off a list of elements in the GTA's favour, including direct flights here from Jamaica and its prevalence of English.

After Games in 2003 in Santo Domingo, Dominican Republic, in Brazil's Rio de Janeiro in 2007 and Guadalajara, Mexico, in 2011, it may be time for an English-speaking city. Winnipeg hosted in 1999.

Fennell emphasized Jamaicans are familiar with Toronto, given the many island expatriates living here.

Bogota is seen as the main competition, though Lima has touted the sentimental card because Peru has never hosted a Games.

Bogota has more experience hosting big sporting events, and most of its venues are already built. Its biggest disadvantage is geography. At 2,600 metres above sea level, its altitude can be hard on athletes, especially in endurance sports.

GTA bid chair David Peterson, who has been crisscrossing the hemisphere for months to drum up votes – including a one-day trip to Guyana – warns against overconfidence.

"It's like the 100-yard dash, you could lose in the last tenth of a second," he said.

His bid team will be lobbying furiously in coming months, including a planned trip to Copenhagen, where many delegates will be attending to help the International Olympic Committee choose the site of the 2016 Summer Games.

Nailing down Caribbean support would go a long way toward collecting the 27 votes the GTA needs to win. Every PASO member has a vote, but those that have hosted a previous Games get an extra vote, for a total of 52.

In a rare public endorsement, Barbados Olympic Association president Steve Stoute announced in July that Barbados would vote for Toronto. And Stoute, who wears an additional hat as president of the Caribbean National Olympic Committee, was quoted as saying he would encourage all 26 Caribbean members to support the GTA's bid.

After a whirlwind visit here that included 18 stops by foot, car, bus, train and ferry, evaluation chair Julio Cesar Maglione praised the GTA's $1.4 billion bid. Governments have promised $1 billion for an athletes' village by the waterfront.

Maglione said the GTA could host the Olympics if it wanted.

However, he used many of the same complimentary phrases visiting Lima and Bogota last week.

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Pan Am bigwig really likes us -- and everyone else

September 03, 2009

John Kernaghan

The Hamilton Spectator

http://www.thespec.com/News/Local/article/627988

Oh Julio, you sweet talker.

Pan Am bigwig Julio Cesar Maglione came into Hamilton and Toronto Monday gushing about how pretty and progressive we were.

Why, you could even get invited to the big dance, the Olympics, you look so good, he praised.

But the chairperson of the evaluation panel reporting on the 2015 Pan Am bids does indeed butter up the city of the moment.

He loves the one he's with. In Bogota, Colombia, on Friday, he said the city "could hold the Games tomorrow."

Well, he amended, there is the small matter of an athlete's village that hasn't been built yet.

The Bogota bid website reported the appraisal group also asserted "with some modifications," the Colombian capital could aspire to host the Olympic Games.

Earlier in Lima, Peru, according to the Andina business website, Maglione said, "Lima looks more beautiful every day ... I hope the 42 Olympic committees choose it as host city."

Like the Toronto 2015 bid, Bogota and Lima were deemed to "have the necessary conditions to host."

Toronto 2015 chair David Peterson said he understands why Maglione would be magnanimous in all cities.

"He is a very gracious guy. He's not going to say something is terrible."

Peterson noted the six-person panel that visited this week will not rank the cities but will detail each bid's readiness in 17 categories.

While he was surprised by Maglione's comment that the bid group here could "go for the Olympics if you want," the former Ontario premier said Toronto 2015 was taking nothing for granted.

"We still have a lot of tough selling to do. There is a lot of travel, a lot of calls, a lot of conversations required."

Even buoyed by the news influential Jamaican delegate and Pan Am vice-president Michael Fennell calls the Canadian bid the frontrunner, Peterson said the southern Ontario initiative needs to push hard right through to the vital final presentation and vote.

That comes in early November in Guadalajara, Mexico, at the annual congress of the Pan American Sports Organization.

"It's a secret ballot. I know how it works," Peterson said. "I lost an election and everybody I've met since says they voted for me."

For David Braley, the city businessman who kickstarted the Pan Am movement here, "it comes down to politics after you've shown you can stage the Games."

Close observers of the international bidding process expect Toronto 2015 will command most of the 26 votes from the Caribbean, plus get two each from Canada and the United States and a few in Latin America.

There are 42 countries in the Pan Am movement and the 10 that have hosted Games get an extra vote.

That means it will take 27 votes to win the 2015 spectacle.

If Bogota and Lima predictably split the South American vote, it could be a first-ballot win for Canada.

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Tiny Lima may emerge as Pan Am host: expert

September 11, 2009

John Kernaghan

The Hamilton Spectator

http://www.thespec.com/News/Local/article/632606

Is this Pan Am Games bid overqualified?

And is there a sympathy vote building for Lima, the smallest of the cities bidding?

Those are the questions a veteran bid observer took from a recent tour by a 2015 evaluation panel.

The six-member group visited Hamilton and Toronto late last month.

"When the bid chair said Toronto's facilities are so good it should go after the Olympics, that caught my attention," said Rob Livingstone of GamesBids.com.

Livingstone, who operates the website from Richmond Hill, has been monitoring bidding on Olympics, Pan Ams and Commonwealth Games for 20 years and says figuring out how the Pan Am governing body operates is very difficult.

But, he noted, two themes have emerged.

Evaluation chair Julio Cesar Maglione consistently said facilities in Hamilton and Toronto exceed Pan Am needs.

And the bid from Lima, Peru has been playing the sympathy card as the smaller centre in a country that has never staged a major international sporting event.

Indeed, Peru tried at the highest diplomatic levels to have Canada stand aside in the competition.

Its ambassador to Canada wrote to Minister of State for Sport Gary Lunn asking the Toronto 2015 bid group to postpone its bid.

His argument, according to The Embassy magazine, was that Canada's sport infrastructure was more in line with the Olympics.

Lunn replied that Ontario has not hosted a major multi-sport Games since the 1930 British Empire Games in Hamilton, was keen to win but would consider supporting Peru in the future.

All conspiracy theorists need to get their minds racing is Maglione's comment in Lima that he hopes "all 42 Olympic (Pan Am) committees choose it as host city."

Livingstone says the Pan American Sports Organization invites speculation and conjecture because there is little communication to the public.

The PASO website is inconsistent and the organization rarely issues statements.

"They don't seem interested in English, meaning there is a language barrier between North and South America."

Livingstone stressed Toronto 2015 has tried to span that divide with Spanish-speaking staff but felt the southern Ontario bid needs a senior official who speaks Spanish.

His assessment of the bidding status is that the southern Ontario bid is strong due to finances, infrastructure and size and position of market for a Games hoping to improve its brand.

But Livingstone said the vote in early November to chose Canada, Peru or the Colombian bid for Bogota could hinge largely on the Oct. 2 vote to determine the 2016 Olympic host city.

If Rio, the 2007 Pan Am host, wins, momentum could swing north to Toronto 2015. And if Chicago wins, it could go south.

GamesBids.com yesterday ranked Rio as the front-runner and Chicago No. 2 in its latest bid- status index.

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Tiny Lima may emerge as Pan Am host: expert

September 11, 2009

John Kernaghan

The Hamilton Spectator

http://www.thespec.com/News/Local/article/632606

Is this Pan Am Games bid overqualified?

And is there a sympathy vote building for Lima, the smallest of the cities bidding?

Those are the questions a veteran bid observer took from a recent tour by a 2015 evaluation panel.

The six-member group visited Hamilton and Toronto late last month.

"When the bid chair said Toronto's facilities are so good it should go after the Olympics, that caught my attention," said Rob Livingstone of GamesBids.com.

Livingstone, who operates the website from Richmond Hill, has been monitoring bidding on Olympics, Pan Ams and Commonwealth Games for 20 years and says figuring out how the Pan Am governing body operates is very difficult.

But, he noted, two themes have emerged.

Evaluation chair Julio Cesar Maglione consistently said facilities in Hamilton and Toronto exceed Pan Am needs.

And the bid from Lima, Peru has been playing the sympathy card as the smaller centre in a country that has never staged a major international sporting event.

Indeed, Peru tried at the highest diplomatic levels to have Canada stand aside in the competition.

Its ambassador to Canada wrote to Minister of State for Sport Gary Lunn asking the Toronto 2015 bid group to postpone its bid.

His argument, according to The Embassy magazine, was that Canada's sport infrastructure was more in line with the Olympics.

Lunn replied that Ontario has not hosted a major multi-sport Games since the 1930 British Empire Games in Hamilton, was keen to win but would consider supporting Peru in the future.

All conspiracy theorists need to get their minds racing is Maglione's comment in Lima that he hopes "all 42 Olympic (Pan Am) committees choose it as host city."

Livingstone says the Pan American Sports Organization invites speculation and conjecture because there is little communication to the public.

The PASO website is inconsistent and the organization rarely issues statements.

"They don't seem interested in English, meaning there is a language barrier between North and South America."

Livingstone stressed Toronto 2015 has tried to span that divide with Spanish-speaking staff but felt the southern Ontario bid needs a senior official who speaks Spanish.

His assessment of the bidding status is that the southern Ontario bid is strong due to finances, infrastructure and size and position of market for a Games hoping to improve its brand.

But Livingstone said the vote in early November to chose Canada, Peru or the Colombian bid for Bogota could hinge largely on the Oct. 2 vote to determine the 2016 Olympic host city.

If Rio, the 2007 Pan Am host, wins, momentum could swing north to Toronto 2015. And if Chicago wins, it could go south.

GamesBids.com yesterday ranked Rio as the front-runner and Chicago No. 2 in its latest bid- status index.

Well looking at Rob's Observations it may make sense considering his support and involvement with PyeongChang 2018 but I think he who communicates the bid may play out in the end in this case. Canoc was very unimpressed with Bogota and Lima not taking maximum of 4 hours flights to Curaçao to present their cases while Toronto 2015 came in full force with long flights with some team members who could answer questions in Spanish , English or French . Canoc has a huge block of Votes for Paso. If you can't run a bid campaign then generally it does not instill confidence to run a Games. The South American Cities may have thought of making that faux paus up lobbying at the first Caribbean Games in Trinidad and Tobago but those games as we know were canceled.

It is a wonder Toronto 2015 did not have a crelo Speaker with them for Canoc's AGM for 2009. As to the thought of being over qualified Paso also would want to remember what happened with Rio 2007 in Regards to Capital Projects going to the final hour and Santo Domingo in 2003. Then there was the Abandoned twice staging of the 1986 games by Santiago Chile and Quito, Ecuador. Mike Fennel I am sure would rather not oversee paint drying in Lima in the 11th hour like the case was in 2003 and 2007.

Paso with only one Candidate city for 2011 being in Latin America probably does not want to repeat having a North American City Turned off by the vote for 2007 and then not have a North American Candidate in the next round . Repeating in South America could indeed be the end of North American Hosting of the Pan Am Games .

The Paso Vote being delayed beyond the 2016 decision may be a sign of Quid Pro Quo going on .

Votes from Canada for Rio 2016 of Votes from Brazil for Toronto 2015 . That may help both bids win .

Jim jones

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Toronto is a lock for 2015.

Not necessarily. Tradition for PanAms has it alternating between North Am/Caribe and South America. Since 2011 is Guadalajara, tradition has the next one in So. America (Lima or Cali)'s favor. If the So. Amer bids are really lousy can Toronto win uncontested.

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The rotation theory is not accurate.

1983 Caracas VEN (SA)

1987 Santiago CHI (SA) -> Quito ECU (SA) -> Indianapolis USA (NA)

1991 Havana CUB (CA)

1995 Mar del Plata ARG (SA)

1999 Winnipeg CAN (NA)

2003 Santo Domingo DOM (CA)

2007 Rio de Janeiro BRA (SA)

2011 Guadalajara MEX (NA)

- 83/7 was back to back South American picks (ended up in Indy for double withdrwal).

- 87/91 - 99/03 was North America and Central America w/o a South American host. (Indy was bidding for the 91 PanAm when it was called to rescue 87)

So, I wouldn't be surprised if Toronto gets 2015, especially if they bid aiming at a preparation for an Olympic bid. This might make the PanAm Games more valuable for prospective hosts and athletes.

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