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ejaycat

Beijing Trumps Athens... And Then Some

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Umm, how do you know that I don't live in America? I never said where I lived. Isn't it a bit presumptuous of you to make that assumption? And using the Katerina Thanou example is pretty lame...that's old news, and it seems to be intended to rub salt into old wounds. It has no place in this conversation.

I follow media closely and frequent many TV and media industry message boards and I can tell you, with certainty, that NBC's coverage faced much criticism this year, probably even more so than in past years.

CBC, the BBC, etc. focused on more than just their medal hopefuls. Same in Greece. The fact that NBC did not carry, for instance, the men's 100m, is absurd no matter how much you slice it.

The fact that you would have been pissed off if they cut away from a beach volleyball matchup for one of the most marquee events in the Olympics is really quite telling. NBC could have shown it on its cable channels, but an event like the 100m would most certainly garner top billing on any other network anywhere in the world, regardless of whether or not a country had a medal hopeful in the race.

Even if you are a meda critic, I don't care. Nor do I care what you think we should and should not have been watching. I'm sure, however, if there had been a full piece about how Thaneau was trying to get back into these games and failed you would have been extolling their virtues.

Don't like it - tune in somewhere else. These were about the best televised games by NBC in the US since Jim McKary last did it in '84 IMHO.

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Even if you are a meda critic, I don't care. Nor do I care what you think we should and should not have been watching. I'm sure, however, if there had been a full piece about how Thaneau was trying to get back into these games and failed you would have been extolling their virtues.

Don't like it - tune in somewhere else. These were about the best televised games by NBC in the US since Jim McKary last did it in '84 IMHO.

Baron and LA84, the fact that this is the best response you could both come up with in response to the points that savas and myself made really shows how weak your assertions are. It seems you have both run out of negative things to say about Greece (and positive things to say about NPC - National Phelps Channel) that this is the only response you have left. You can turn around and say "whatever" and that you are "tired of this topic" (how convenient that you get "tired" of it when you run out of negative points to spew and how mature of you as well) but the facts remain the facts and you cannot refute them.

Savas-thank you for outlining the thoughts and feelings of many Greek people on this important issue. As you correctly pointed out, you or I can come on message boards like this one and refute each and every one of the points a "writer" like Martin Rogers makes, with hard evidence. But that doesn't change the the fact that Rogers' article is on Yahoo Sports, to be read by hundreds of thousands of people who are not in a position to know any better, while our posts will be read by a handful of people that frequent these message boards. Articles like this do real damage to the image of Greece abroad, and that is what you (and I) are objecting to, especially when the information and "facts" contained within are false.

It is also pretty laughable to see that Yahoo changed the original text of the article from stating that "21 out of the 22 facilities" are unused and abandoned, to "many of the facilities" are abandoned and unused, without so much as an official correction or retraction, even though this new, "corrected" statement is still completely false. It does prove that Rogers did not know what he was talking about when writing his article, but it also displays the total arrogance and lack of respect of Yahoo Sports, in not formally acknowledging their mistake and by replacing one falsehood with another.

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Baron and LA84, the fact that this is the best response you could both come up with in response to the points that savas and myself made really shows how weak your assertions are. It seems you have both run out of negative things to say about Greece (and positive things to say about NPC - National Phelps Channel) that this is the only response you have left. You can turn around and say "whatever" and that you are "tired of this topic" (how convenient that you get "tired" of it when you run out of negative points to spew and how mature of you as well) but the facts remain the facts and you cannot refute them.

Wait a minute - perhaps you need to get your facts correct. NOWHERE did I critisize Greece. In fact, I am about the only person that agreed with Savas about the current state of the Olympic facilities. And after the shameful display of some on here after 2004, I make it a practice to rarely, if ever, comment on anything to do with that country as individuals like you tend to turn things into a personal crusade and insult anyone who don't agree with you.

So please try and take steps to make yourself look less foolish in the future.

Edited by LA84

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Wait a minute - perhaps you need to get your facts correct. NOWHERE did I critisize Greece. In fact, I am about the only person that agreed with Savas about the current state of the Olympic facilities. And after the shameful display of some on here after 2004, I make it a practice to rarely, if ever, comment on anything to do with that country as individuals like you tend to turn things into a personal crusade and insult anyone who don't agree with you.

So please try and take steps to make yourself look less foolish in the future.

Your insults towards me and your comments belittling me were wholly unnecessary and made you be the one that looks foolish, not me.

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Your insults towards me and your comments belittling me were wholly unnecessary and made you be the one that looks foolish, not me.

Typical - does not acknowledge that he/she was wrong after earlier insults, but finds a way to turn it around and claim to be a victim.

That pretty much says it all.

Moving on . . .

Edited by LA84

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Typical - does not acknowledge that he/she was wrong after earlier insults, but finds a way to turn it around and claim to be a victim.

That pretty much says it all.

Moving on . . .

Funny, I could say the same thing about you. Moving on...

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Oh my god, is this one still going on? Should it be left to a neutral observer to end all of your misery by calling a truce on this one.

As Edina says " Yacaca eh stooooooohhhh". Which is basically ABfab language for "end it now".

:D

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Four years since the Athens Games, a Greek tragedy is taking place. Incredibly, 21 out of the 22 Olympic venues now lie abandoned and in various states of ruin.

I suppose they are meant to complement the most famous landmark of Athens...which is itself a ruin?

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All of those sporting facilities are in use on a frequent basis. For instance, any of the sporting facilities that are now used for football or basketball matches (Olympic Stadium, Karaiskaki, Kaftanzoglio, etc., the converted baseball stadium, the Hellinikon arena, the Olympic indoor arena, the Peace and Friendship Stadium, etc.) are in continuous use for league matches, as well as matchups with European squads. The Olympic Indoor stadium also held the Olympic qualifying tournament for basketball just a couple of weeks before the games. The OAKA held the Champions League final in 2007, holds domestic and international track meets (Tsiklitiria) each year, is used for concerts (Bjork in July, Madonna next month are examples), etc.

For a conclusive end to this debate, what is obviously needed is a set of official utilisation rate figures for each of the facilities concerned. Not some self-observed listing of events which can take a huge amount of time to compile but still fail to convince individuals like myself.

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For a conclusive end to this debate, what is obviously needed is a set of official utilisation rate figures for each of the facilities concerned. Not some self-observed listing of events which can take a huge amount of time to compile but still fail to convince individuals like myself.

What is so self-observed? The writer's assertions that 21 out of the 22 facilities are laying in a state of abandonment or ruin is flat out wrong, and can be proven just by doing some quick research to find out which sorts of events have been held in these facilities recently.

Savas and myself described many of these uses in our posts. Uses such as the Olympic Stadium being used for domestic soccer league matches (home field for two teams in the Greek Super League, Panathinaikos - www.pao.gr - and AEK Athens - www.aekfc.gr), track meets (like the Tsiklitiria meet, part of the IAAF Golden League - http://www.tsiklitiria.org/) , and concerts (Shakira and Pearl Jam in recent years among others, Bjork a couple of months ago - http://www.ekathimerini.com/4dcgi/_w_artic...0/05/2008_97189 -, Madonna in a few weeks - http://www.ticketpro.gr/ -). The OAKA also held the UEFA Champion's League final in 2007: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Ljz6N9bAtWA...feature=related

The OAKA basketball stadium is the home court for Panathinaikos - www.paobc.gr - and AEK - www.aekbc.gr - in the Greek first division of basketball, and recently held the FIBA Pre-Olympic Qualifying Matches (http://www.athens2008.fiba.com/), as well as the Eurovision Song Contest in 2006. It is also the home court for the Greek National basketball team.

The velodrome recently hosted the Greek Cycling Championships (photos here: http://apolisports.blogspot.com/2008/06/gr...ship-2008.html). And here is a list of events held there recently (unfortunately only in Greek): http://www.oaka.com.gr/articles_list.asp?e...mp;e_cat_id=324

The tennis center is still in use, here's a list of tournaments held there recently (unfortunately only in Greek): http://www.oaka.com.gr/articles_list.asp?e...mp;e_cat_id=325. It is also used by the Athens Tennis Academy: http://www.athenstennisacademy.gr/eng/gallery.html

The aquatic center is still in use as well...list of recent tournaments, again only in Greek: http://www.oaka.com.gr/articles_list.asp?e...mp;e_cat_id=342. The outdoor pool is open to the public as well. http://www.e-tipos.com/newsitem?id=47588

The Peace and Friendship stadium is still in use and is the home court for Olympiakos BC (basketball) - http://www.olympiacos.org/#/Basketball/TrainingCenter/SEF/ - as well as for conventions and exhibitions, a list of which can be found here: http://www.sef-stadium.gr/index.files/Page1937.htm

The Hellinikon basketball stadium is now the home court for Panionios BC in the Greek basketball league: http://www.panioniosbc.gr/index.asp?a_id=90. The stadium has also hosted numerous concerts and conventions, including Iron Maiden, the Athens Tuning Show, the Tourism & Property Show, the Woman Show and many others: http://www.e-tipos.com/newsitem?id=47588

The baseball field at the Hellinikon complex has been converted to a football pitch and is the home field for Ethnikos FC in the Greek second division: http://www.sport.gr/default.asp?pid=96&amp...64&cid=2216

The Canoe-Kayak facility at the Hellinikon complex recently held the Greek canoe-kayak championships, and will be converted to a waterpark, as the facility has already been handed over to a private consortium, including J&P AVAX, GEP, Corfu Waterparks and BIOTER. This waterpark will be part of the larger plans to turn the entire Hellinkon property, which was once Athens' international airport, into a metropolitan park. http://www.e-tipos.com/newsitem?id=47588, http://www.ekathimerini.com/4dcgi/_w_artic...3/08/2007_86425.

Karaiskaki Stadium is the home pitch for Olympiakos FC: http://www.olympiacos.org/#/Football/Train...ter/Karaiskaki/ and has hosted domestic and Champions League matches continuously since 2004 and has also held concerts and festivals (including the fly beeyond festival and a concert with Massive Attack, also seen in the link above). It has also served as the home field for the Greek National football team: http://www.karaiskaki.gr/hellas_gr.asp. Even more information about the facility is here: http://www.karaiskaki.gr/events_gr.asp

Kaftanzoglio Stadium in Thessaloniki is the home pitch for Iraklis FC in the Greek Super League: http://www.iraklis-fc.gr/swift.jsp?CMCCode=0202&extLang= and http://www.kaftanzoglio.gr/activities2.html. Last year, it was also the temporary home field of FC Apollon Kalamarias, another football team in the Greek Super League, whose original stadium is under reconstruction - http://www.apollonkalamariasfc.gr/pae/agon...storia-2007.htm.

The Pancretan Stadium in Iraklion is the home pitch for OFI FC and Ergotelis FC in the Greek Super League: http://www.ofi.gr/game.aspx?game_id=185, http://www.stadia.gr/pankritio/pankritio-gr.html, http://www.ergotelis.gr/ergotelis/frontend...amp;option=form. It also held the Greek Cup final in 2006.

The Panthessaliko Stadium in Volos will be the main stadium for the Mediterranean Games of 2013 (http://www.medgames.net/) and hosted the Greek Cup final in 2007 and has held local football games, track meets, concerts and conventions. Is also the home field for Niki Volou in Greece's second football division. http://www.e-tipos.com/newsitem?id=47588

The Panpeloponisiako Stadium in Patra held the Greek Cup final in 2005, held the Greek football All-Star Game in 2008, and has held local football games, track meets, concerts and conventions and recently also held an international friendly match with the Greek National football team. It is also the home field for Panahaiki in Greece's third division. http://www.panachaiki.gr/site/index.php?op...9&Itemid=66, http://www.e-tipos.com/newsitem?id=47588

The Faliron Complex has become the Athens International Convention Center, and has hosted, amongst other things, concerts by Morrissey, Isaac Hayes, Antonis Remos (popular Greek singer), political gatherings, trade shows like the Athens Audio Visual Show, and performances such as "Peter Pan on Ice":

http://www.olympicproperties.gr/contents_gr.asp?id=265

http://www.i-stores.gr/index.php?option=co...d=2〈=gr

http://siteseein.gr/2006/11/morrissey.html

http://www.myday.gr/_NEA/PREVIEW_newS.asp?...p;category_id=5

http://www.google.com/url?sa=t&source=...5CEc8x5YFRNxyvQ

http://www.e-tipos.com/newsitem?id=47588

The Goudi Olympic Complex has become the Badminton Theater, one of Athens' most modern theaters and concert halls. It will be hosting West Side Story in September, and has hosted numerous theatrical productions, including Mamma Mia. http://www.badmintontheater.gr/

The Beach Volleyball Stadium has held concerts, and has recently been turned over to a private company, S.K. Pazaropoulos, which plans to turn it into a 21st-Century version of Athens' historic "Lycabettus" theater. http://www.e-tipos.com/newsitem?id=47588. It is under conversion and is scheduled to be completed by 2009. Here is one event that was held in the stadium after 2004: http://www.olympicproperties.gr/events_gr....e=27&id=295.

The Olympic fencing hall in Peristeri has been partially converted, featuring a football pitch and hosting gymnastics competitions. http://www.e-tipos.com/newsitem?id=47588

Agios Kosmas Sailing Marina: has been turned over to the private company Seirios A.E. and will be turned into a world-class marina (with room for close to a thousand yachts), and will be part of Athens' revitalized waterfront, which also includes a new theater, library and concert hall that will be designed by world-renowned architect Renzo Piano: http://www.bloomberg.com/apps/news?pid=206...&refer=muse, http://www.olympicproperties.gr/contents_gr.asp?id=317

Athens Main Press Centre (MPC): has been converted to the new headquarters of the Greek Ministry of Health and Social Welfare, and the amphitheater contained within has hosted numerous ceremonies and public events: http://www.olympicproperties.gr/contents_gr.asp?id=256, http://fe-mail.gr/pages/posts/greece_europ...e_world2293.php

International Broadcast Center (IBC): has been turned over to a private corporation, Lambda Development, which is turning it into a shopping mall and retail center which will be known as the "Golden Hall," with 146 retail spaces. Part of the IBC will become the Greek Olympic Museum and the International Museum of Classic Athletics. http://www.lamda-development.net/online/Pr...mp;PageCounts=1

Olympic Weightlifting Hall in Nikaia: has hosted fencing competitions since the Olympics, however, it has now been turned over to the University of Piraeus, which it will use for lecture halls and classroom space: http://www.unipi.gr/anak-ekd.php?prkaID=1279

Markopoulo Shooting Range: has been turned over to the Hellenic Police Force, and will be the site of its police training academy and the headquarters of the Special Forces division of the Hellenic Police. http://www.olympicproperties.gr/contents_gr.asp?id=317 and http://www.olympicproperties.gr/contents_gr.asp?id=258

Olympic Rowing Center in Shoinias: is part of the Shoinias National Park, and is one of only three FISA approved training centers in the world, the other two being in Munich and Seville. http://www.olympicproperties.gr/contents_gr.asp?id=317. The 2008 FISA European Rowing Championships will be taking place here in just a few weeks, 18-21 September: http://www.worldrowing.com/display/modules...p?eventid=35081. Though this facility did indeed lie unused for a while, it has been completely reconstructed by the Germany company Hochtief, and is in full use today. http://www.e-tipos.com/newsitem?id=47588

Olympic Equestrian Center, Markopoulo: Is now the headquarters of the Greek Equestrian Federation, as well as Greece's Horse Racing competitions (which relocated from an old facility in Faliron after the Olympic Games). A European Equestrian Competition was held here from July 9-13, 2008: http://www.hunterjumpernews.com/?p=5148. Here are some domestic events that have taken place there this year: http://www.olympicproperties.gr/events_gr....e=18&id=312

Ano Liosia Olympic Hall: has been leased out for various uses over the years, including the filming of the Greek version of the Reality TV show "So You Think You Can Dance." According to this article (http://www.e-tipos.com/newsitem?id=47588), the facility is in excellent shape. In September 2009, it will become home to Greece's new Academy of Culture and the National Digital Archive. http://www.olympicproperties.gr/contents_gr.asp?id=266

Olympic village: 2,292 apartments were sold to low-income individuals and today the village is home to over 8,000 residents. It is suffering from some problems, most notably lack of frequent public transportation, but it is fully in use and was turned over to residents immediately after the end of the 2004 Olympics. http://www.e-tipos.com/newsitem?id=47588

Galatsi Olympic Hall: After the Olympics, this was the home court of AEK BC in Basketball. http://www.stadia.gr/galatsi/galatsi-gr.html. AEK has since moved back to the OAKA complex (its home court before 2004) and the hall has been turned over to a private consortium, Acropol Haragionis AE and Sonae Sierra SGPS S.A. It is now being converted to a shopping mall and entertainment complex, scheduled to reopen in 2009. http://www.olympicproperties.gr/contents_gr.asp?id=253

And again, this is just how the Athletic facilities have been used. In the leadup to the Athens games, numerous huge public works projects took place that transformed the city of Athens and the quality of life of its residents and visitors alike:

Athens Metro: Used to be comprised by one line, the "ilektrikos" running north-south from Piraeus to the northern suburbs of Athens. The ISAP was completely revitalized before the games, and two new Metro lines were added to it, in time for the 2004 Olympics. However, the metro continues to expand to this day, with the planned addition of a new line and further expansions of existing lines, with some metro stations having been completed in the past few years and added into service. More information here: http://www.ametro.gr/page/default.asp?la=2&id=7 and photos of this project, including the spectacular stations (which resemble museums more than train stations) here: http://www.ametro.gr/page/default.asp?la=2&id=14

Tram: Completed just before the Olympics, the tram continues to be a vital part of the transportation network of Athens, connecting regions that do not have Metro service to the city center and the port of Piraeus. http://www.tramsa.gr, http://www.tramsa.gr/map/googlemapstram.html. The tram was recently expanded to the southern suburb of Voula, and there are other planned expansions, including 11 new stations in Piraeus: http://www.tramsa.gr/html/gr/diadromes.php?id=4.

Proastikos: The suburban railway connects the City of Athens with the new international airport, the northern coast of the Peloponese and cities like Korinthos, and is under expansion to reach cities like Kiato and Halkida. http://proastiakos.gr/en/ and http://proastiakos.gr/en/?getwhat=1&oi...;id=&tid=53

Athens International Airport "Eleftherios Venizelos": Completed in 2001, it is an ultra-modern airport near the town of Spata, outside of Athens, which replaced the old and outdated airport at Hellinikon. Earlier this year, the airport welcomed its 100 millionth passenger. It has won numerous awards, including "best airport in Southern Europe" in 2005 and 2006, European Airport of the Year in 2004 and Green building of the year in 2008 (for its environmentally friendly design). It is also one of only a few airports that is capable of accommodating the new Airbus A380. In the years since the Olympic games, numerous new airlines have begun routes to Athens, including US Airways, Continental Airlines, Air China, and Aer Lingus, and the amount of passengers handled has increased in each year since starting its operations. There are plans to expand the airport's capacity and a convention center is being built at the airport as well.

http://www.aia.gr

http://www.worldairportawards.com/Awards-2...ResultsFull.htm

http://www.aia.gr/entry.asp?pageid=741&amp...amp;entryId=232

Attiki Odos: a new motorway, completed in 2004, linking initially the new Athens International Airport with the city and outlying regions like Elefsina, connecting it to Greece's main national motorways heading south from Athens to Peloponissos (Korinthos, Patra, etc.) and north to Thessaloniki. It acts as a ring road around the city, diverting traffic away from the city center and helping to reduce traffic and pollution. Plans were recently announced to expand the Attiki Odos south within the city of Athens, to the southern suburb of Vouliagmeni, and to Athens' secondary port town of Rafina and the industrial town of Lavrio. http://www.express.gr/news/politics/35654o...8060335654.php3, http://www.aodos.gr

Converting Athens' historical center to a pedestrianized zone: The main historical sights of central Athens, including the Acropolis, the Ancient Agora, the Kalimarmaron Stadium (site of the original Olympic games), etc. were all connected and made easy for pedestrians to access, as roads that were previously open to traffic were closed off and converted to pedestrian walkways. There are plans to expand the pedestrian walkways to other parts of central Athens, including the main throughfare of Athinas Avenue, which travels north from Monastiraki (just below the Acropolis) to Omonia Square in the heart of Athens. http://www.minenv.gr/4/44/4401/440102/4401...4401020202.html, http://news.kathimerini.gr/4dcgi/_w_articl.../08/2008_282400, http://www.ekathimerini.com/4dcgi/_w_artic...6/08/2008_99833, http://www.ekathimerini.com/4dcgi/_w_artic...8/01/2002_12350

**********

It is important to note that I am not blindly drinking the Athens kool-aid. There were delays in the usage of some of the Olympic facilities after the games, and some of them are currently not in use because they are in the process of being converted or awaiting final building permits to begin development works. But it is important to note that most facilities ARE in use, and those are not are all slated for redevelopment or are under redevelopment and are close to completion (and many of them were used for various purposes since 2004 as well).

It is also important to note that the improvements and works that took place in Athens did not merely consist of the construction of new sporting facilities, but also all of the infrastructure works mentioned above, all of which are in use in Athens 24-7-365. NONE of the articles written about the aftermath of the games in Athens mentions this fact, and one has to wonder why that is. These projects have all had a tangible effect on the improvement of the city's quality of life, and just as importantly, these projects were not a fleeting, once-in-a-lifetime moment for Athens. As proven by the continued expansion of the metro, rail, tram, highway, etc. systems, these are projects that have set in motion continued and further improvements in the quality of life and the quality of infrastructure in Athens, which the city will benefit from for decades to come.

It seems to me that the Yahoo article, as well as previous articles written about the issue in the British (primarily) press, were the ones based on the observations of certain "journalists" who visited Athens for a brief period of time and tried "visiting" some of these facilities, when it is impossible for every single facility to be open at all times. A lot of their "reporting" also reeks of mudslinging and slander, such as the reported communities of Roma living near the Olympic stadium...they were there before 2004 as well, and they are all over Greece and many other European countries as well...so what? They don't actually live *inside* the OAKA complex, as was seemingly implied by these so-called articles.

There was never a moment at any point after the 2004 Olympics when 21 out of the 22 facilities were not in use. One has to wonder where Mr. Rogers got his figures from. I honestly would not be surprised if they were pulled out of thin air, because I have not seen that number referenced anywhere else. Just as irresponsibly, Yahoo removed the reference to 21 out of 22 facilities, replacing it with "many" without any sort of correction or note in the article that a "correction" was made (even though saying that "many" of the facilities are not in use is also incorrect, as proven above).

The Greek press has been covering the issue of the redevelopment of the Olympic Properties quite thoroughly, including in some of the articles I linked to here. While there has been criticism for the slow pace of the conversion of some of the properties, that coverage has been balanced with coverage of all the facilities that are in use and the facilities which have been successfully converted, as well as those that are under redevelopment at this moment. The international press seems to have lifted the criticism and has ignored ALL of the MANY positives that have taken place. Of course, this does not surprise me, judging by the attacks Athens and Greece continually faced before the 2004 games, which all proved to be unfounded in the end.

It amazes me that I was able to perform research that these so-called "journalists" *should* have performed before taking the liberty to write such inaccurate and slanderous articles of Athens. Websites such as www.olympicproperties.gr go into great detail over the usage of the Olympic facilities, and many of the facilities, from the OAKA to the Badminton Theater, have their own websites. Mr. Rogers is a football reporter, yet he ignored the fact that all of the football facilities and the Olympic Stadium are in use for domestic and international football matches on a club and national team level.

Finally, it is pretty noteworthy that Mr. Rogers seems to immediately assume that every single facility used for the Beijing Olympics will be used, as promised by the Chinese Government (the same Chinese Government that broke a myriad of promises it had originally made to the IOC for the Olympic Games). It amazes me that he wrote the article just days after the games ended, making assumptions that Beijing's post-Olympics development will be more successful than Athens when not even a week had gone by, and by basing his assertion on the falsehoods about 21 of the 22 Athenian facilities being abandoned and "in ruins." That is shoddy, irresponsible, yellow journalism at its worst. It is unfortunate that people like Rogers have the opportunity to influence the minds of millions of people with their lies and falsehoods, when the truth lies elsewhere and can be easily proven. It also amazes me that even when the facts are presented, with references, photos, etc., people still refuse to believe it and continue to put down Athens. Of course, that is nothing new, putting down and insulting Greece should become an Olympic sport at this rate, with how frequently it seems to occur in the press and online. However, the truth is the truth and cannot be changed, and I for one will do whatever I possibly can as one person to refute this garbage "journalism" and these lies about Greece. Greece is not a perfect country, but it does not deserve this treatment by the press, it does not deserve this slander, the Greek people do not deserve this unwarranted coverage and harm to their reputation and abilities. They are insulting, demeaning, and they should not continue.

Finally, comments like this one:

I suppose they are meant to complement the most famous landmark of Athens...which is itself a ruin?

...demonstrate my point about the snide, ignorant remarks that are made at Greece's expense, influenced by articles such as the one by Mr. Rogers, with no basis in reality. I certainly hope that this comment was a joke, because it certainly is very insulting to Athens and to the Greek people.

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Things were better around here when you were asleep.

For that matter, all this discussion is purely academic. No bearing with the real world. :D

So, when are you getting you free trip to Greece, courtesy of the Ministry of Culture and Shills?

Edited by baron-pierreIV

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For that matter, all this discussion is purely academic. No bearing with the real world. :D

So, when are you getting you free trip to Greece, courtesy of the Ministry of Culture and Shills?

No bearing with the real world? Did you even look at my post and all the links that accompanied it? No one is being a shill, everything there is documented and is happening in the real world, the same one you claim to live in but are probably just dreaming about.

It seems to me that you have your mind made up and even if the truth slapped you in the face, you wouldn't budge. Then again, judging by some of your other "posts" here I can't say I'm surprised.

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What a nonsense article..... How can the author compare the Athens and Beijing legacies. It it not possible to compare the posterior use of Olympic venues? if Beijing olympic period is not finished yet, they are already in use because of the paraolympics. What a crap is that.

It its possible to compare past olympics, as Athens with Sidney, maybe the best, or Atlanta, the worst Games ever held. All of them "small" cities. Even Barcelona, that can be considered as the best example of how Olympics has a positive effect in the city and country. is smaller than Athens. And there were several venues not in use for several years, as the Montjuic Olympic Stadium.

I havea my comparison, mi personal comparison. I did not like Beijing Olympics, Why? They were good regarding to sport results, lot of records, heroes.... But no soul, cold even frozen atmosphere in almost are venues, unless chinese athletes were in competition, and it was evident even by tv. That plenty on events were not as interesting and full of emotion as in Athens were. I think that Athens were full of great moments which were supported by greek people. Chinese were correct, but without soul.

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