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I don't know very much about it but I think João Havelange stadium is not that far enough from Maracanã, they're in the same cluster. There are subway lines connecting both stadiums, so travel time shouldn't be a problem between in this case.

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João Havelange stadium is indeed in the Maracanã zone as a stand alone venue.

It is well connected to transportation strutures with a suburban train link to Maracana cluster and a motorway link to Barra cluster (19 kms away).

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João Havelange stadium is indeed in the Maracanã zone as a stand alone venue.

It is well connected to transportation strutures with a suburban train link to Maracana cluster and a motorway link to Barra cluster (19 kms away).

Weren't there issues during the Pan Am Games surrounding transport and congestion around the stadium? How will this be resolved? Any delays means a 25 minute or more journey for 10,000 athletes from the village.

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Weren't there issues during the Pan Am Games surrounding transport and congestion around the stadium? How will this be resolved? Any delays means a 25 minute or more journey for 10,000 athletes from the village.

What's with the attitude?

BTW, what do you mean with your last sentence? Any delay will add time to an already long journey... Stating the obvious.

Did I say there was no issue during the Pan Am Games?

I am not working for Rio nor particularly supporting the bid, just providing precision with respect to Rio's current proposal. I was explaining the infrastructure in place or planned connecting the stadium to the rest of the transportation network. Any infrastructure alon won't do the job without a proper transportation plan (simulation of the bus fleet needed for the athletes, olympic family, VIP, spectators, detailed plan for parking load and un-load zones). I did not make an assessment of Rio transportation plan - one reason being that I haven't seen it (neither have you).

Is it completely stupid to think that Rio could use the lessons learned during the PanAm to improve their transportation plan? Why don't you wait and see for the full bid book to see whether and how the issue is addressed.

FYI, they did something rather simple in Athens: shut down all traffic in Athens but Olympic Related traffic on Opening Ceremony day. Rio could do the same for its Opening (which BTW would take place in Maracana not Jao Havelange that we were initially discussing).

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Ok, time to explain a thing or two here:

1 - Baron, the 45000 stadium was already 6 times more than the original price without the need of 15000 more seats for the T&F events (as a matter of fact, almost no session during PanAm Games was sold out), why build more than necessary? On this point I agree with the OC: build a medium stadium with a possibility to upgrade. Also, what if Rio doesn´t win 2016 (I can see a smile rising here ;) ) or if it is not used for 2014 (which I believe is the most probable)?

The Engenhao is already nicknamed Vaziao (Big Empty) by the journalists because Botafogo supporters don´t go there, specially at night games. With 15000 more empty seats to take care, I don´t think it will be a good thing to build them until it is really necessary.

2 - There is a direct train line between the city downtown, Maracana stadium and JH stadium, but the subway is not that near, it is a 10 minutes (with traffic lights) drive from there. And I don´t advise walking between the subway and JH. Logistic here will play a major role here, since the bus connection between subway and stadium will have to be quick.

3 - Next 2010 WC qualifier in Brazil will be at Engenhao (at least that is what I read), then we will see about delays or traffic problems for the first time, since it will be on a wednesday night.

4 - Although it is a real maze around JH, the stadium is 5 minutes from Yellow Line, a major highway which during the PanAm Games linked the stadium with the PanAm Village.

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There is a direct train line between the city downtown, Maracana stadium and JH stadium, but the subway is not that near, it is a 10 minutes (with traffic lights) drive from there. And I don´t advise walking between the subway and JH. Logistic here will play a major role here, since the bus connection between subway and stadium will have to be quick.

Thanks rominger for your explanations - it is always good to have members from the bidding cities here on GamesBids - they know the circumstances best...

JH Stadium in rio the station of the mentioned "direct train line" between the city Center downtown is visible in the south of the stadium - the subways station is upper right corner of the map - you are right it seems a very very very "complicated" way between the JH stadium and "Del Castilho" (the subway station)

Rominger - how long does it take from Maracana to the JH stadium by train?

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Thanks rominger for your explanations - it is always good to have members from the bidding cities here on GamesBids - they know the circumstances best...

Rominger - how long does it take from Maracana to the JH stadium by train?

That is why I am here :)

When I used it, on a Saturday afternoon, to get from Central Station (before Maracana Stadium) to JH not more than 30 minutes...and using the old train, not the modern one (big difference, trust me). It is safe to say that, if there is a direct line (Maracana - JH) it won´t take more than 15 minutes (being conservative, I say 10 min at most)

I retuned that same day using the bus connection to take the subway (which goes straight into my home) and, some months before, I went from Barra to the North Zone neighborhood by bus going through the Yellow Line and some detours which were close to JH (which was purely coincidence since I didn´t have any idea how to get there from Barra).

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JH Stadium in rio the station of the mentioned "direct train line" between the city Center downtown is visible in the south of the stadium - the subways station is upper right corner of the map - you are right it seems a very very very "complicated" way between the JH stadium and "Del Castilho" (the subway station)

Look, it is not done yet ;) What a shame!!!! :lol:

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what hasn't been done yet?

The JH stadim at the Google map, I think the map is from mid/2006 or even earlier (if the posts from PanAm thread were still available I could check that).

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Rominger, do you know what the buildings in the "sout-west" of the JHstadium on the google map are?

They were used for fixing and maintaining the train cars. It was told that it could be transformed into a Train Museum or used as an Olympic Training Center, but I think most of that were brought down and it is still like that so far (out of money).

The JH stadium area was a huge train parking lot, but it was already almost out of business when they decided to use it.

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mhh - I thought it is a general word like district or suburb...

Let us say that 'suburb' is a kind word for favela. Slum is much more adequate.

So you may guess "well the area is surrounded by slums". Yes, and that is why many people avoid going to JH on a normal wednesday night just to see a regular soccer match. Obviously, during the PanAm Games, the situation was very different, with high security around the venue that anyone could go there without any problem.

Since the favelas are so common here, it may happen that one may confuse it as a district or a suburb, but those don´t have the 'adjective' in their names.

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Let us say that 'suburb' is a kind word for favela. Slum is much more adequate.

So you may guess "well the area is surrounded by slums". Yes, and that is why many people avoid going to JH on a normal wednesday night just to see a regular soccer match. Obviously, during the PanAm Games, the situation was very different, with high security around the venue that anyone could go there without any problem.

Since the favelas are so common here, it may happen that one may confuse it as a district or a suburb, but those don´t have the 'adjective' in their names.

... in my point of view all Brazilians will be very proud if Rio hosts Olympic Games - therefore all Brazilians will welcome the visitors from all over the world and the crime rate will go down during the Games...

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Ok, time to explain a thing or two here:

1 - Baron, the 45000 stadium was already 6 times more than the original price without the need of 15000 more seats for the T&F events (as a matter of fact, almost no session during PanAm Games was sold out), why build more than necessary? On this point I agree with the OC: build a medium stadium with a possibility to upgrade. Also, what if Rio doesn´t win 2016 (I can see a smile rising here ;) ) or if it is not used for 2014 (which I believe is the most probable)?

The Engenhao is already nicknamed Vaziao (Big Empty) by the journalists because Botafogo supporters don´t go there, specially at night games. With 15000 more empty seats to take care, I don´t think it will be a good thing to build them until it is really necessary.

I understand the need to build just adequately for needs. I wasn't questioning that. I was just puzzled that there wasn't a prominent explanation of the JH Stadium in the mini-book, and then looking at the pics + the video, it just seemed a very complicated programme to make it fit with the various upcoming events. That's all.

So it's not a sure venue for 2014?

But I like the look of the stadium -- very airy and love the blue track. Thanks, rominger.

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... in my point of view all Brazilians will be very proud if Rio hosts Olympic Games - therefore all Brazilians will welcome the visitors from all over the world and the crime rate will go down during the Games...

The problem is that it will only go down during the Games, after....

If someone executes a good bid (not those who are there at this time), the crime rate can go down as a trend not a spike.

By the way, the South Zone has a very low crime rate. There is, of course, but significant below average, which means tourists can go here without much worry (but don´t go out showing your $1000 digital camera for everyone, or your chances will improve a lot)

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What's with the attitude?

BTW, what do you mean with your last sentence? Any delay will add time to an already long journey... Stating the obvious.

Did I say there was no issue during the Pan Am Games?

I am not working for Rio nor particularly supporting the bid, just providing precision with respect to Rio's current proposal. I was explaining the infrastructure in place or planned connecting the stadium to the rest of the transportation network. Any infrastructure alon won't do the job without a proper transportation plan (simulation of the bus fleet needed for the athletes, olympic family, VIP, spectators, detailed plan for parking load and un-load zones). I did not make an assessment of Rio transportation plan - one reason being that I haven't seen it (neither have you).

Is it completely stupid to think that Rio could use the lessons learned during the PanAm to improve their transportation plan? Why don't you wait and see for the full bid book to see whether and how the issue is addressed.

FYI, they did something rather simple in Athens: shut down all traffic in Athens but Olympic Related traffic on Opening Ceremony day. Rio could do the same for its Opening (which BTW would take place in Maracana not Jao Havelange that we were initially discussing).

Attitude? What are you on? I'll ignore the outburst and assume it was a bad day.

I asked how issues during the Pan Am Games would be resolved i.e. since the existing infrastructure is insufficient to carry 10,000 athletes to the maracana stadium for the opening and deal with general traffic of 60,000+ attending the ceremony, what additional plans are proposed to cope with this congestion.

London, Beijing, Sydney had the benefit of villages within reasonable distance of the olympic stadium (JH). What specific interventions are currently proposed to ensure that an 18 minute journey doesn't become a 25-30 minute journey for those competin at the stadium and spectators.

I assume rominger or others could answer my intitial question:

1. What is being planned to improve access and reduce congestion from the village to Maracana

2. What is being planned to improve access and reduce congestion from the village to JH, which is already an 18 minute journey.

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I understand the need to build just adequately for needs. I wasn't questioning that. I was just puzzled that there wasn't a prominent explanation of the JH Stadium in the mini-book, and then looking at the pics + the video, it just seemed a very complicated programme to make it fit with the various upcoming events. That's all.

So it's not a sure venue for 2014?

But I like the look of the stadium -- very airy and love the blue track.

Understood.

I see here a lot of comments about JH being used as a venue for 2014. I don´t know where it came from, but CBF will use as many cities as they can for 2014, so 2 stadia in the same city is almost considered a back up plan, as also if Maracana won´t be adequate for 2014.

I like the stadium too. Since it was one of the two build in the past, say, 30 years here, it is a much modern and accessible than the rest. My wife went with me (almost a miracle) and she also enjoyed the stadium too.

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I assume rominger or others could answer my intitial question:

1. What is being planned to improve access and reduce congestion from the village to Maracana

2. What is being planned to improve access and reduce congestion from the village to JH, which is already an 18 minute journey.

As far as I know the bus only lanes (T5), between Barra (OV) and JH are being claimed as a way to solve most of the problems. Also a bus-only lane is being projected for OV to Maracana (temporary only for the Games, much like it happened during PanAm). I believe it is told at the mini-bid book, if it is not well explained there I can do more research. I think it is a good project, but still I have to see it happen.

I don´t know about timing, but since most of the venues will be around Barra (which mean a very short time between OV and venues), I believe a 20-min is very low transit time between OV and TH and, actually, traffic jams are only expected during rush hours, the Yellow Line, which links Barra to JH is very reasonable during the rest of the day. If someone can think about that and makes a reasonable schedule it is possible to make an extensive use of the highway.

Just to remember that, although I know it is not the same proportion, lots of avenues and highways during the Games had a 'PanAm exclusive lane' used for lots of things, including buses, which were far more than necessary. I was at a training venue for running and triathlon and, during the week before the opening, there were quite a few athletes, but the buses were there every hour. So, considering that, I believe that, with good planning and improving infrastructure with the subway and train (I am not considering the expansion I´ve heard about the subway going from Del Castilho to Barra, which I think it is unlikely until 2016) and with the Games in July, it can be very reasonable. I was surprised at Torino, Salt Lake and Rio that there weren´t many jams and most of the problems were only during the OC.

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Understood.

I see here a lot of comments about JH being used as a venue for 2014. I don´t know where it came from, but CBF will use as many cities as they can for 2014, so 2 stadia in the same city is almost considered a back up plan, as also if Maracana won´t be adequate for 2014.

I like the stadium too. Since it was one of the two build in the past, say, 30 years here, it is a much modern and accessible than the rest. My wife went with me (almost a miracle) and she also enjoyed the stadium too.

Rominger look at the You tube video for the City or Rio on JH stadium . and Maracana certainly has redevelopment renderings in keeping with WC 2014 having a fabric roof added. THere have been many stadiums actually loder then Maracana as host stadiums for the world cup . They of course are renovated. Atleast 3 maybe 4 for WC 2006 were per world war two stadia.

Rio will not get passed over for WC 2014 . there is not way and considering the proposed bullet train from San Paulo to Rio it certainly looks like those two cities would exercise the two stadium options. Bunk of the population and airport infrastructure exists in those cities.

jim jones

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Surely there is no way on this Earth that a venue like the Maracana, with all its history, could be overlooked for 2014, especially if it is going to play such an integral part for 2016.

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