Seperate Stadiums

[arwebb]

I realize this is a bit off topic but is Glasgow using both Hampden Park for athletics and Murrayfield for ceremonies?

Murrayfield is in Edinburgh, so isn't involved.

[jim jones]

Separate ceremonies and athetics stadiums are also what Glasgow are doing for the Commonwealth Games. I've got no problem with it. If it's the best use of existing facilities, so be it.

like the separate Aquatics Centres one being in host city for swim racing and the diving venue in a former Commonwealth host city 40 miles away LOL. Please don't try comparing the Commonwealth games to the Olympics because that is just plain stupid to begin with.

Jim jones

[jim jones]

Why is there a problem in using two stadiums. If athletics doesn't need a +72,000 seat venue and there is a better, more suited venue on offer, why not use it. It makes transport slightly harder in one sense but also takes a lot of the heat of the main stadium.

You are right that it does take heat off the Main Athletics Stadium to change over for competition the next day. Athens because they were running up to the games time to compete venues was given Advice from NBC in the states of a new system of field turf called Greentech ITC that had it so the Turf would be placed in the main stadium overnight after the opening ceremonies concluded.

Greentech is a Tray system that allows standard fork lifts to carry the sections in rapidly . While work was being done on the stadium Greentech had trays growing the turf in different locations around Athens and even in the parking lot of the Stadium . The opening ceremonies was held on the concrete floor and then the entire Greentech infield was installed overnight.

Maracana would probably not need this being the opening and closing ceremonies venue as soccer matches could probably start a day or two after the opening ceremonies or as in many cases be the venue for your final rounds with many of the teams playing in other cities for the first couple of days. JH stadium not being a Opening and Closing ceremonies stadium can just be prepared for Athletics.

As to Capacity it is pretty apparent that the end roofs can come off JH Stadium and are only needed for WC 2014 when JH will be 60000 seats under total cover per Fifa spec. Take the roofs off on the ends and you have air space and actually physical space for the 10000 addition temporary seats on the ends making for the required 80000 seats for a main athletics stadium for the olympics. The renderings I have Seen on Maracana will have a fabric roof extension provide 100 percent crowd coverage for WC 2014 and that will make Fifa's spec for the Olympics as well.

Transportation wise . JH and Maracana are on the same urban train lines so going to soccer match should be as easy as stopping at one station and going onto the athletics events you would just stay on the same train and continue onto JH stadium or visa versa in the opposite direction . VEry simple planning the capacity certainly has to been there but scheduling can also help with staggering start and finish times and off course you will have days athletics will be under way but not soccer and visa versa.

Jim jones

[arwebb]

like the separate Aquatics Centres one being in host city for swim racing and the diving venue in a former Commonwealth host city 40 miles away LOL.

Been dealt with hundreds of times, Jones. Please do make an effort to get over your bitterness at some point during the rest of your life.

Please don't try comparing the Commonwealth games to the Olympics because that is just plain stupid to begin with.

You'd know all about stupid, wouldn't you?

[Sir Rols]

like the separate Aquatics Centres one being in host city for swim racing and the diving venue in a former Commonwealth host city 40 miles away LOL. Please don't try comparing the Commonwealth games to the Olympics because that is just plain stupid to begin with.

Jim jones

At least one place we know CWGs events WON'T be held in 2014 is Abuja, Nigera (apart from Her Maj's baton passing through).

Funnily enough, JJ, you seem to compare the CWGs and the Olympics all the time and don't seem to think it stupid when it suits your purposes. Indeed, you seem incapable of posting anything about the CWGs or Abuja without mentioning London 2012 and have started whole threads in the CWGs section on the strength of throwaway remarks by Rogge. But then again, consistency of arguments is not a strong point of yours.

Anyway JJ, you should hope the IOC DOES take a lead from the CGF. If not, and the IOC doesn't like separate stadiums, then Rio's chances are that much less.

[Jim856796]

Shhhhhh! Let sleeping dogs lay.

Ogh. PLEASE don't use that kind of language in this forum! I don't like it. That's Orthodox Jew Double Bluff, you moron! You're wrong for this.

Anyway, I also think it may be against the rules to use the Maracana for the ceremonies and the Joao stadium for the Track and Field events. Wikipedia said that the Joao Havelange Stadium can be expanded to accommodate 60,000 seated patrons. It probably doesn't mean that there is a rule that only one stadium can host the ceremonies AND athletics events.

[cfm Jeremie]

Anyway, I also think it may be against the rules to use the Maracana for the ceremonies and the Joao stadium for the Track and Field events. Wikipedia said that the Joao Havelange Stadium can be expanded to accommodate 60,000 seated patrons. It probably doesn't mean that there is a rule that only one stadium can host the ceremonies AND athletics events.

If it was against the rules, it would have been mentioned in the Applicant City report (as was the case for Jaca 2014 with its opening & closing ceremonies taking place in Zaragoza).

It was not.

I honestly believe that IOC members couldn't care less on whether the ceremonies take place at Maracana or Joao Havelange.

I rest my case.

[jim jones]

At least one place we know CWGs events WON'T be held in 2014 is Abuja, Nigera (apart from Her Maj's baton passing through).

Funnily enough, JJ, you seem to compare the CWGs and the Olympics all the time and don't seem to think it stupid when it suits your purposes. Indeed, you seem incapable of posting anything about the CWGs or Abuja without mentioning London 2012 and have started whole threads in the CWGs section on the strength of throwaway remarks by Rogge. But then again, consistency of arguments is not a strong point of yours.

Anyway JJ, you should hope the IOC DOES take a lead from the CGF. If not, and the IOC doesn't like separate stadiums, then Rio's chances are that much less.

So what would you like to degrade into today. Perhaps we could go to the Off Topic section if you really like and talk about you favorite pet peive with James. I have good one on that LOL.

Jim jones

[jim jones]

Been dealt with hundreds of times, Jones. Please do make an effort to get over your bitterness at some point during the rest of your life.

You'd know all about stupid, wouldn't you?

My total Point THe UK or Europeans can pretty much bend things to suit their need to prop up failing idea that they are superior yet they can't even do what they accuse others of not being able to do. If a developing country would do that . They gets crapped on. It is a glass ceiling of Backhanding and favorism in a little euro club. As I recall here there were some talking of blood in the streets of Rio during the Pan am Games yet that did not occur and how they just could not see the games going to Brazil in regards to the Olympics. Then the president of Brazil comments were supposed to derail the whole process and Rio would not make th short list.

Yeah they made the short list alright and Doha was chucked off because the IOC was very worried Doha would buy the games at the expense of the America's most certainly.

You should actually read the question and answer section for a NYtimes Blog by Olympics expert and historian David Wallechinsky, author of “The Complete Book of the Olympics.”

His Contacts seem to be stating the desire by the IOc for this to go to Rio but he feels Chicago is entitled because of 1904. This man was awarded Olympic Order by the I.O.C. Hey if anything maybe the gay lobby will get the desire to have Chicago blackballed According to some in this Crowd Afterall that seems to be the case with reports coming out of Chicago

http://cbs2chicago.com/local/police.abuse....s.2.752605.html

Of course hey America is such a lovely place as well LOL. Again it is usually the leadership or the people in control not the citizens of a city or country.

Jim jones

[jim jones]

Ogh. PLEASE don't use that kind of language in this forum! I don't like it. That's Orthodox Jew Double Bluff, you moron! You're wrong for this.

Anyway, I also think it may be against the rules to use the Maracana for the ceremonies and the Joao stadium for the Track and Field events. Wikipedia said that the Joao Havelange Stadium can be expanded to accommodate 60,000 seated patrons. It probably doesn't mean that there is a rule that only one stadium can host the ceremonies AND athletics events.

Jim Actually JH stadium has structure right now to go to 60000 seats without modification to the roof which is required for WC 2014 and then the way this stadium was designed they actually have the reverse situation to the 2000 Sydney olympics stadium where they could actually take off the end roofs which the games do not require in the case of Athletics. The room is there for the additional 10000 seats per end zone on top of the 15000 to be added for the world cup . Basically this stadium would be a revise development of the Telstra Stadium in Sydney which closed the ends in post games with the roof.

The way the entire Stadium was designed and developed was very smart because they built to a capacity that was beyond what the Pan Ams had with Expansion provisions. They can wait for a time when they could time purchases for the world cup with a price advantage for seats and the concrete work. Then they could take the end roofs off post world cup and sell the steel probably covering the stadium improvements . After they were done with the World cup and the Olympics they would not need a 100 percent roof cover for JH stadium simply because it would be atleast 2050 until they hosted the world cup again of it was that soon . Rider hunt of Australia had a great deal to do with the design as they did with the Sydney 2000 stadium. John Baker is also involved with the Rio 2007/ WC 2014 and Rio 2016 plan in regards to Rio De janiero.

Jim jones

[arwebb]

My total Point THe UK or Europeans can pretty much bend things to suit their need to prop up failing idea that they are superior yet they can't even do what they accuse others of not being able to do.

Where is your evidence? Yet again, you make a claim that anyone with any reasonable objectivity would be able to see that you cannot prove within a fraction of a nanosecond. Don't tell me what I should or shouldn't read. Don't tell me what I should or shouldn't think. I'll make up my own mind and I would hope that you, as an allegedly mature middle-aged man, would actually have the maturity and humility to respect other people's viewpoints. Don't worry, I'm not exactly holding my breath.

[baron-pierreIV]

Ogh. PLEASE don't use that kind of language in this forum! I don't like it. That's Orthodox Jew Double Bluff, you moron! You're wrong for this.

IDIOT!! I don't care whether you like it or not. First time I've heard it as an Orthodox-Jewish thing or not.

[baron-pierreIV]

OK, I've looked at the Rio book, and unless I've missed it -- nowhere does it reference the Joao Havelange Arena as the main T&F venue?? All I see for Athletics are the Sambodromo stadium for the Marathon/Archery and another one for the other road (I guess) walking events. So this is the glorious Rio bid? They left out the main Athletics venue?

OK -- if it supposed to be the Havelange Arena (or whatever), it is a fully roofed stadium -- so how can they upgrade this to a 60,000 (only?) seater?

By knocking out the 2 ends? But the roof is one piece. That would compromise its structural integrity.

Thorb, you are the expert, how do they propose upgrading this stadium? The only way I see it is by tearing down the entire roof structure.

Can someone point out to me where this issue is addressed in the mini-bid book? Or is this venue due for a major overhaul for 2014 regardless?

[cfm Jeremie]

Wise-ass time.

Joao Havelange is indeed identified as the competition venue for T&F (both in the maps and the 1.2 chart).

It is listed in Chart1.2 "Existing Venues, permanent works required".

I am not specialist but it seems that it's possible to add additional seats in the curve at both ends of the stadium.

60,000 meets the IOC requirement for T&F. And remember Maracana would be used as the Olympic Stadium (80,000 + seater).

[baron-pierreIV]

/\ /\ OK, thanks. I didn't see Chart 1.2. But if you will look at the various maps and sites identified, I didn't see it there. I know the 60,000 minimum; I am not questioning that.

[cfm Jeremie]

/\ /\ OK, thanks. I didn't see Chart 1.2. But if you will look at the various maps and sites identified, I didn't see it there

It is listed on Map A (number 6).

It is not part of a cluster which is why it cannot be seen on the more detailed Maps.

[thorbr]

OK, I've looked at the Rio book, and unless I've missed it -- nowhere does it reference the Joao Havelange Arena as the main T&F venue?? All I see for Athletics are the Sambodromo stadium for the Marathon/Archery and another one for the other road (I guess) walking events. So this is the glorious Rio bid? They left out the main Athletics venue?

OK -- if it supposed to be the Havelange Arena (or whatever), it is a fully roofed stadium -- so how can they upgrade this to a 60,000 (only?) seater?

By knocking out the 2 ends? But the roof is one piece. That would compromise its structural integrity.

Thorb, you are the expert, how do they propose upgrading this stadium? The only way I see it is by tearing down the entire roof structure.

Can someone point out to me where this issue is addressed in the mini-bid book? Or is this venue due for a major overhaul for 2014 regardless?

Baron, what I know is that the stadium was designed, from the beggining, to be possibly upgraded. I don't know much about technical details.... but... as I remember from the Pan Am Games Committee, where I've worked last year, the architects always had that in mind while planning everything... so... I do think it's possible.

[jim jones]

OK, I've looked at the Rio book, and unless I've missed it -- nowhere does it reference the Joao Havelange Arena as the main T&F venue?? All I see for Athletics are the Sambodromo stadium for the Marathon/Archery and another one for the other road (I guess) walking events. So this is the glorious Rio bid? They left out the main Athletics venue?

OK -- if it supposed to be the Havelange Arena (or whatever), it is a fully roofed stadium -- so how can they upgrade this to a 60,000 (only?) seater?

By knocking out the 2 ends? But the roof is one piece. That would compromise its structural integrity.

Thorb, you are the expert, how do they propose upgrading this stadium? The only way I see it is by tearing down the entire roof structure.

Can someone point out to me where this issue is addressed in the mini-bid book? Or is this venue due for a major overhaul for 2014 regardless?

Baron look at the picture you have posted showing the end zone area . Note the concrete structures above the end seating . That is to be filled in with seating sections for the World Cup and that area certainly could provide the platform for 7500 seats per end easily without taking the roof OFF. If you followed the construction of the Stadium the roof sections over the main sections ( the double decks stands) where actually supporting in 2006 without the Endzone Arches. The four Arches are independant of each other and this design is basically the Sydney Main Stadium but post 2000 Games when they added the end roofs for Aussie Rules Football tenants "the Swannies" . In the Case of ANZ Stadium as it is called now the capacity was over 100,000 with the scaffolding temporary stands . here it the story of that stadium Bellow Baron.

Stadium Australia, presently known as ANZ Stadium, is a multi-purpose stadium located in the Sydney Olympic Park precinct of Homebush, Sydney, Australia. The stadium was completed in March 1999 at a cost of A$690 million to host the 2000 Summer Olympics.[1] The stadium held the 2000 Summer Olympics and the 2003 Rugby World Cup Final.

The stadium was originally built to temporarily hold 110,000 spectators, making it the largest Olympic Stadium ever built as well as the largest stadium in Australia. In 2003 reconfiguration work was completed to shorten the north and south wings, and install movable seating. These changes reduced the capacity to 83,500 for a rectangular field and 81,500 for an oval field. Awnings were also added over the North and South stands, which means that now most of the seating is under cover.

45000 for the Pan Am Games is certainly enough seats for a Main Athletics stadium Hell Winnipeg 1999 was not even that on a University of Manitoba Field .

The Entire roof structure does not have to be torn down . They have the roof structure for all undercover 60000 seats for World cup 2014 and then can take two years to take off the end roofs and assemble Lehyer Scaffolding with 10000 seats per end making it an 80000 seats venue for the olympics in 2016.

Take a look at this Baron

Jim jones

[baron-pierreIV]

Baron look at the picture you have posted showing the end zone area . Note the concrete structures above the end seating . That is to be filled in with seating sections for the World Cup and that area certainly could provide the platform for 7500 seats per end easily without taking the roof OFF. If you followed the construction of the Stadium the roof sections over the main sections ( the double decks stands) where actually supporting in 2006 without the Endzone Arches. The four Arches are independant of each other and this design is basically the Sydney Main Stadium but post 2000 Games when they added the end roofs for Aussie Rules Football tenants "the Swannies" . In the Case of ANZ Stadium as it is called now the capacity was over 100,000 with the scaffolding temporary stands . here it the story of that stadium Bellow Baron.

Jim jones

I saw the ribbing there at the ends. I'm just curious as to why they didn't build all the way to 60,000 when they built it. Was the budget short then to NOT allow for another 15,000 seats? Does PASO only require 45,000? The roof is one piece but I guess you could cut out a section anywhere and still not sacrifice the tension of the whole thing?

It just seems -- to me -- that 15,000 is kinda small to mark between a halfway building and going all the way.

[jim jones]

I saw the ribbing there at the ends. I'm just curious as to why they didn't build all the way to 60,000 when they built it. Was the budget short then to NOT allow for another 15,000 seats? Does PASO only require 45,000? The roof is one piece but I guess you could cut out a section anywhere and still not sacrifice the tension of the whole thing?

It just seems -- to me -- that 15,000 is kinda small to mark between a halfway building and going all the way.

Well Paso would probably not require 60000 seats for the Pan Am Games Hell Paso would be overwhelmed that New Construction took place for a Main stadium let alone a 45000 seat stadium . The Dominican Republic hosted the 2003 Pan Am games the stadium for those games had a capacity of 27000 and was first built in 1974. Winnipeg 1999 was probably less then that The DR's hosting stadium and Mar de plata Argentina hosted in 1995 with the maximum their largest stadium can hold being 35000 but for Soccer Only. Mar de Platas largest stadium has a maximum length of 105 metres and an Athletes Stadium is 180 metres in length minimum so that 35000 seater was not the main stadium for the 1995 pan am games .

Not much is shown on the venues for 1995 or 1999 but they did not get a new stadium or even an old one at 45000 seats capacity. Rio 2007 was in the stratosphere compared to any other Pan AM games prior. The entire money spent for Pan Am 2003 was less then JH Stadium cost to construct.

Botafogo Football Club is the new Tenant for JH Stadium at a reported 18000 a month for the next 20 years. Putting in the 15000 extra seats now at the City's expense would probably not make sense. Of course getting things done earlier can have cost savings especially how things are going now. With 6 years to the WC 2014 they could certainly pick up deals along the way . Who knows if Rio was to Win the Olympic Bid for 2016 they could always buy surplus Plastic Seats from London 2012 and install in time for the WC 2014. Who knows they could time the price of concrete or steel right with so very little to do and they could again have savings. Capacity on those things needed to build a stadium will increase because the demand is High now. You will then get a bubble bursting. The big thing is time. Adding Transportation infrastructure is where Rio will be acting on in the next couple of years as it will certainly take more time and resources (Labor, Materials , Heavy Equipment) to execute transportation projects then it will be to add 15000 seats on to a stadium that has the support structures in place for those seats. Considering the Pan AM games bid was awarded in 2002 and had historic levels of Capital projects for those games Rio has done pretty good.

It certainly makes for a great base for the 2016 bid.

jim jones

[Jim856796]

They would have built the Joao Stadium's roof after the stadium gets expanded, not before. I ain't gonna rip out both of the ends of the stadium's roof or tear down the entire roof. I've seen several indoor arenas get their seating capacities expanded, some of those expanded arenas (like the now-deceased HemisFair Arena in San Antonio) had to have their roofs literally raised and lifted during their expansions.

[Victor Mata]

This video was aired some time before Rio 2007 games and shows the future projects for João Havelange Stadium. It's divided in 3 phases:

1- Rio 2007 pan am games mode

2- World Cup 2014 modifications

3- return to olympic stadium configuration

http://br.youtube.com/watch?v=zEmQNuje_y0

[jim jones]

They would have built the Joao Stadium's roof after the stadium gets expanded, not before. I ain't gonna rip out both of the ends of the stadium's roof or tear down the entire roof. I've seen several indoor arenas get their seating capacities expanded, some of those expanded arenas (like the now-deceased HemisFair Arena in San Antonio) had to have their roofs literally raised and lifted during their expansions.

Thing is Fifa WC requires full roof cover for the entire spectator stands , The summer Olympics does not or really IAAF Athletics.

With 72,000 seats being the largest World Cup 2006 venue a 60000 seat under cover JH Stadium would fit that federations requirements . with Maracana down the street basically and being in the 95000 capacity range it is apparent what they have planned for WC 2014. The plans have Maracana going with an extended fabric roof to cover the entire audience for world cup 2014. Maracana has been redeveloped for site lines and the other requirement of seats for all spectators. many places in south america and africa that is something the except as opposed to the rule. Maracana's next redvelopment is the roof.

Two cities in a host nation can have two venues per city for World cup play. San Paulo and Rio would be logical and hence a highspeed rail system to be built between those two cities.

Of course JIM856796 they could raise the end roofs and add more seating to the 15000 additional. The also have room down bellow it seems according to the plans set in place on the You tube video. anyway you look at it they certainly have the bases covered on JH stadium and it is a long term plan for three events to host possibly . Two already a certainty . PAn Am Games

and Fifa WC 2014. With an Arena is is a bit different after all if you were looking at raising the roof on a hockey arena you are looking at keeping the need for the ICe surface to be indoors. with a Stadium you don't have that concern simply because most Stadiums have exposure to the outdoors even in the day and age of many domed stadiums. 58 domed stadiums world wide either existing under construction or past domed stadium torn down .

jim jones

[Rafa]

Thing is Fifa WC requires full roof cover for the entire spectator stands.

jim jones

lol

[baron-pierreIV]

This video was aired some time before Rio 2007 games and shows the future projects for João Havelange Stadium. It's divided in 3 phases:

1- Rio 2007 pan am games mode

2- World Cup 2014 modifications

3- return to olympic stadium configuration

http://br.youtube.com/watch?v=zEmQNuje_y0

Thanks, Victor. But it's in Portuguese -- so I don't understand it. ....just kidding...

Wow, so to retrofit it to 80,000 for the World Cup, they will rip up the track and lower the pitch to accommodate for the 80,000? Kinda drastic. And then restore the pitch and track for 2016? The whole scheme seems kinda ass-backwards to me.

And this stadium is nowhere near one of the other clusters? Hmmmm.