Sorry Rio - Not This Time!

[thatsnotmypuppy]

As posted in another thread -

Enough about Rio and it's feasible chances - here is the black and white 2012 evaluation - prove to me these issues have been fixed -

The physical and geographical situation of Rio creates challenges in terms of urban

transport networks, with transport facilities constricted to the area between the ocean

and the nearby mountains. Alternatively, transport facilities have to go around the

vast Tijuca Forest. The current traffic situation is problematic as almost all public and

private transport systems are superimposed and have to use the overcrowded road

system. The Rio metro subway system is limited to two short lines which serve a

small proportion of Rio’s urban areas. The suburban rail system, which has been and

still is undergoing major upgrades (electrification, track renewal, etc.), serves only

Rio’s northern and north-western suburbs, but very little of the proposed Olympic

areas.

Motorway and major rail infrastructures which are planned to connect the eastern

(Rio Central Business District to Copacabana), northern (Maracanã and Deodoro) and

western (Barra) areas of Rio pass through geographical bottlenecks and/or very

densely urbanised areas and are, therefore, challenging and costly to build.

If all transport infrastructure elements (motorway and high performance rail)

proposed for 2012 are in place, the transport concept is sound in principle but will be

challenged to meet the transport capacity needed to cope with Rio’s basic traffic

demands (without the Olympic Games) given the very heavy concentration of flows.

In addition, given Rio’s history of difficulties in the field of heavy rail and urban

motorway development, and the very high cost of these infrastructures, the

probability of having a full dual system (motorway + high performance rail) in place in

seven years time appears to be optimistic.

So have there been huge transport infrastructure upgrades? Wasn't one of the rail lines scrapped?

Rio has a low number (12) of existing venues (39%). However, importantly, through

preparing for the 2007 Pan-American Games, ten (32%) sports venues are currently

under construction or their construction will commence shortly. All of the permanent

venues will be completed by 2007.

Nine (29%) additional venues will be required for the Olympic Games, of which three

will be permanent. This gives a total of 31 venues.

The Rio sports concept covers four regions of the city in venue clusters, with Barra

Olympic Park (18 sports including the Olympic Stadium) as a focal point, just 3km

from the Olympic Village.

This high-density cluster of venues in Barra, together with the Olympic Village, MPC,

IBC and Media Villages, may present significant operational challenges.

With the exception of road cycling and sailing (39km), volleyball and water polo

(35km), all venues are in close proximity to the Olympic Village.

The venues under construction and those planned for the Olympic Games will provide

Rio with a very positive sports legacy.

Well in this instance there is hope - Rio does NOW have some world class venues.

Olympic development projects will take place in locations designated for urban

renewal and improvement. Environmentally sustainable design principles will be

implemented in all projects. Traffic- and industry -related air pollution is a challenge.

New suburban rail links are expected to take some of the pressure off the roads.

About one third of the population in Rio suffers from inadequate access to clean

water and proper sanitation. Sewage treatment projects and an extension of sanitary

facilities are expected to improve conditions in the city. It is anticipated that the

Olympic Games would act as a catalyst for improvement projects.

Did the PanAms help with this issue? Has there been any forward momentum in regards with basic sanitation upgrades in the past 4 years?

The number of existing hotel rooms (19,100) is well below the benchmark. The

number of planned hotel rooms (4,000), the two media villages with a total of 17,152

rooms and five cruise ships with 3,500 rooms would increase Rio’s accommodation

capacity to meet the benchmark, but may present a challenge.

How many new hotels have opened? According to the 2016 application file Rio can offer "Rio de Janeiro’s Games Accommodation Plan, delivering 49,570 rooms to meet IOC specifications, satisfies the varied

requirements of all client groups. The Plan leverages the city’s diverse accommodation offerings from hostels to cruise

ships and 5 star beachfront hotels."

That is a huge increase... Is that legit? How many cruise ships are needed to make up that many rooms?

Continuing on -

Distances and travel times -

Although a very large number of competition and non-competition venues are located

in the proposed new Olympic Barra district, the proportion and number of stand

alone venues in other areas is rather high. The average distance between Olympic

competition and non-competition venues is similar to other Applicant Cities.

However, the assumed average bus travel speeds of 63km/h appear unrealistic.

Transport organisation and traffic management at Games-time

The Olympic operational transport concept seems good for Barra, although the sheer

number and size of the venues may generate increased transport congestion and

overload. The concept presents considerable challenges for the rest of the Olympic

system due to heavy potential congestion both on urban motorways and major

arterial roads, as well as on rail or major bus routes on the proposed Olympic Ring,

connecting Barra to other parts of the Rio metropolitan area.

Again I do not see huge transport infrastructure upgrades underway - maybe I am wrong??

The security Forces will be under the control of the Federal Government. Many venues

in Rio are widespread and the requirement for security could stretch the resources

available. The heavy concentration of some key venues in the Barra area may require

a complex security solution. The technology and infrastructure to support the

security operation will have to be developed. It is considered that the time needed to

re-equip, train and implement new systems might not be sufficient.

As news even this week shows security is a huge issue in Rio. And will continue to be.

Rio has some experience in international events, including one world championship

(beach volleyball in 2003), a world club championship (football in 2000) and the

South American Games (in 2002), as well as various world cups and some continental

events. It was also noted that Rio has been awarded the 2007 Pan American Games.

The PanAms have helped - but the World Cup is still years off. One event does not a sporting culture make.

The City, State and Federal governments (in some cases in conjunction with the

private sector) will invest more than USD 400 million in new sports venues, USD 360

million in housing for villages, USD 3.7 billion in road and rail infrastructure and

more than USD 300 million in environmental initiatives.

A commitment is given by the President of Brazil to undertake all necessary

infrastructural developments, to provide services and competition and noncompetition

venues to the OCOG free of charge and to cover any potential OCOG

shortfall.

Big bucks to throw around - especially after the huge cost of the 2014 World Cup... I'd expect even a more advanced economy like Australia or even say Germany would be hard pressed to justify spending ion that scale for an Olympics 2 years after a World Cup.

Rio came rightfully dead last with Havana for 2012 in this category.

Frankly I do expect to see Rio on the shortlist - but for the wrong reasons. The IOC (especially with the Beijing issues) will want to do everything to be seen in a positive light. They dont want anymore "Olympics too big for South America' or 'IOC snubs Brazil' stories. They want to show the Olympics are accessible and can be staged in a les developed economy. Of course you and I know that this is not the case.

Rio is not ready. Maybe come 2020 or 2024 sure - show us how well you do with the World Cup and make us believe! Until then a Rio candidate approval is simple pandering by the IOC. And frankly I wouldn't want to be 'humoured' or put forward not based on merit.

[Faster]

Didn't you post something similar awhile back (and not in the other thread)

I think think there is a precedent to give technically weak bids the games, Athens and Beijing anyone?

[baron-pierreIV]

Oooooo. Shudder....shudder.

[thatsnotmypuppy]

I just hate those wacky Brazilian bids.

Also these Brazilian posters need to do some research and see exactly what the rest of the world sees and knows.

GO BUENOS AIRES 2020!

[baron-pierreIV]

It's all those Brazil...nuts!!

[FYI]

"Athens & Bejing anyone?"

You forgot Sochi.

Anyway, speaking of Buenos Aires, their Relay yesterday seemed to have gone off much better than San Francisco's, London's & Paris'. I was only able to see snippets on the news but there didn't appear to be too much disruption, if any.

[Faster]

"Athens & Bejing anyone?"

You forgot Sochi.

Anyway, speaking of Buenos Aires, their Relay yesterday seemed to have gone off much better than San Francisco's, London's & Paris'. I was only able to see snippets on the news but there didn't appear to be too much disruption, if any.

I was only including summer, Sochi is in the same breathe as Lillehammer.

[cfm Jeremie]

Although I have also have my doubts about Rio making the shortlist, I think you are painting too dark an image.

Most of the issues you raised are being dealt with (what I cannot assess is how much so).

So have there been huge transport infrastructure upgrades? Wasn't one of the rail lines scrapped?

As I said, the fact that Rio has scrapped its rail lines plans in favour of dedicated bus lanes is actually a positive development. Experience has proven that such transportation plan (if implemented in an efficient way) are well suited for the Games and much more realistic than "we will build three rail lines within 7 years".

So expect Rio to score higher in this category than it did in 2012.

Did the PanAms help with this issue? Has there been any forward momentum in regards with basic sanitation upgrades in the past 4 years?

I have read something about Rio shutting down its most polluting industry. I am not sure how much has already been done though.

How many new hotels have opened? According to the 2016 application file Rio can offer "Rio de Janeiro’s Games Accommodation Plan, delivering 49,570 rooms to meet IOC specifications, satisfies the varied

requirements of all client groups. The Plan leverages the city’s diverse accommodation offerings from hostels to cruise

ships and 5 star beachfront hotels."

That is a huge increase... Is that legit? How many cruise ships are needed to make up that many rooms?

Probably one of the main issues indeed.

So clearly Rio has improved its bid.

The question is by how much.

I am expecting Rio to straddle the threshold this time instead of being well below for 2012.

This means including them would be a political move by the EB.

As for can Brazil afford it, I would say if Athens could do it surely Brazil can do it. The real debate is at what cost and should it be a priority...

[baron-pierreIV]

As for can Brazil afford it, I would say if Athens could do it surely Brazil can do it. The real debate is at what cost and should it be a priority...

But 2 global mega-events within 2 years of each other? What if the economy goes south in the years leading up to 2014 and 2016?

[james]

I trust Thatsnotmypuppy, he is often known by me to be of high antagonism. He will spell the whole negative news to see what he doesn't like fails.

I think Brazil can do more to beef up its bid and, that doesn't mean it's not taking the right steps in this ongoing bid. it takes to change when it's told, takes observation of existing infrastruture and tries to add new ones where necessary.

However, there's no bid without negative news stories. If there has been such the NOC has to think twice about its for not bringing in any criticism. Much criticised bid with changes might likely be the best bid.

Take note of this, old man, Thatsnotmypuppy!

[thatsnotmypuppy]

Oh James, you are well known to half read a thread and make assumptions based on the extremely limited knowledge you have.

Do some research James and come back and post only when you have something worth reading.

[Rafa]

I have to agree with TNMP.

I am not sure in which world people live. While BRT is certainly a more achievable systema and plan, such a proposal on its own doesn't form an Olympic transport system. Who are you to decide that BRT will even meet IOC requirements considering its not in place yet and given Rio's ability or lack therefore to show results when it comes to transport projects?

Unless the IOC really want Rio on the shortlist dont expect a high feasibility factor for additional infrastructure proposed.

If it couldn't get the rail plans going, who says it can build the road infrastructure along the same or similar routes?

While I continue to support Rio, I don't believe that reliance or over reliance on one mode of transport forms an Olympic transport system capable of coping with peak Olympic demand. Its rather a combination of transport modes and forms at various locations that form a system.

Its transport plans need much more work and planning. Perhaps take a hint or two from Madrid's transport plans.

[baron-pierreIV]

While I continue to support Rio, I don't believe that reliance or over reliance on one mode of transport forms an Olympic transport system capable of coping with peak Olympic demand. Its rather a combination of transport modes and forms at various locations that form a system.

Like you, Mo, I also continue to support Rio and I hope they don't proceed with their improvement plans. Those would only destroy the pristine beauty that Rio is. Is Honolulu changing itself for some stupid thing like an Olympics? Is Paris? No.

BUt if Rio foolishly proceeds to develop, I think they should keep their plans in secret so nobody can copy them.

[james]

Of course!All modes of transportation would do.Brazilians are not doing what you guyz are complaining about here, that is true. They are acceding to what is required by IOC in the area of transportation.

[Tatsh]

die...

[james]

Nothing DIE about that. I think you have to understand what I connoted with the word acceding.

Anyway, I know that Rio 2016 transportation is carefully going to be planned.

[jim jones]

I just hate those wacky Brazilian bids.

Also these Brazilian posters need to do some research and see exactly what the rest of the world sees and knows.

GO BUENOS AIRES 2020!

So I wonder with these so called areas that the rest of the world Wants lets think about that one for a second .

London Bids and wins the 2012 Games and London has to Build an Athletics Stadium , an Aquatic Centre, Velopark, and a laundry list of Venues. Ok they state these venues and a good portion of them are either

A. Scaled Back B. might actually be changed to exist Venues or C. as in the Mountain Bike Venue not up to Snuff with the International Federations Standards and thus has to be changed to something else.

The IOC suffers the bad press of the cost overruns for the last two year with London 2012 and we still have 4 years to go with little done at this point. The candidates goes from 9 to 7 in number for 2012 to 2016.

How in the world does London do it and have this superior bid over Paris, Madrid , New York and Moscow within the Short list ? and then the others including Rio outside that shortlist?

I could see if you have a London has this set of Venues on the ground today but they have changed plans or not actually had them finalised since they indeed won the bid it seems.

Rio well it is very apparent what the venues are. The Majority in place even before the real work begins on the Next 2012 games. In fact the João Havelange Olympic Stadium was completed before the Beijing Birds nest stadium for the Beijing Games as work was done to that stadium this year whereas rio completed João Havelange Olympic Stadium in the eleventh hour for the Pan Am Games .

So is it that London wrote a bunch of BS and won the games while Rio today biding on the 2016 games is in far more an advanced stage for needed and states capital construction projects for 2016 then London is ready for 2012 ?

Considering that TV viewers are going way down for general TV the games are going to come to either Rio or Chicago and Chicago is probably not going to be palletable for the IOC members because of Iraq and the nice reception the Flame gone in San Fran the other day. Rio has the timezone advantage and the exotic location to spark TV viewers come 2016 .

Tokyo is not going to make its way to a second time host for 2016 . The TV is too difficult for revenues being made out of America . that is the cash cow of the Games. Tokyo is too soon after Beijing and would be a 5 game absence from the Americas. The Spread between the Repeat of the Games in London and Toyko for 2016 would make for 56 years between hosting for Tokyo and 64 years between London hosting. it would be the first city to host twice.

Considering Tv was nothing in 1960 and Frontier Cities including Tokyo have overwhelmingly won since the end of world war 2 the chances are better for Chicago and Rio. The Only Repeat locations since world war 2 has been Rome , London, Los Angeles on the summer side Lake Placid and Innsbrook on the winter side Rome only being awarded for both games they were to host, London in 1948 was a give me , Lake placid and LA have never indeed won in the last 60 plus years.

I question if the IOC wants to take the risk again on platitudes and pieces of paper that mis under estimate the cost they do that with its own danger.

Chicago could pull this off as well as Rio I am very sure. The Americans are way better at project management then the Brits in this day and age. and they do games on a realistic scale not on a Fairy tale dream like Great Britian. It is coming back to the Americas to try to get a boost from American sponsors and TV. Madrid or Praque would be a first in the TV age Back to Back European Summer Olympics.

jim jones

[jim jones]

"How many new hotels have opened? According to the 2016 application file Rio can offer "Rio de Janeiro’s Games Accommodation Plan, delivering 49,570 rooms to meet IOC specifications, satisfies the varied

requirements of all client groups. The Plan leverages the city’s diverse accommodation offerings from hostels to cruise

ships and 5 star beachfront hotels."

That is a huge increase... Is that legit? How many cruise ships are needed to make up that many rooms?"

The downtown Docks at present can host 9 100,000 ton Cruise ships End to End . with a typical Cruise Ship you are looking at 1800 to 3500 passenger per ship . That will increase in the next couple of years.

Then all cruise ships have tendering operations that can transfer ships at anchor to shore in 90 minutes for the entire ship of 3000. I worked on 4 separate lines including a contract on the Queen Mary 2. I also working on the Holland America flagship Rotterdam and was at those actual docks. At the least about 18000 guests on that dock . At the most about 32000 . that requires double occupied rooms of course in many cases. Then Rio has the Naval Yard and downtown Airport with just as much for dock space . This is all 500 metres away from the nearest subway station . 2 KM away from the Central Train station and About 4.5 km from Maracana. not far distances and considering that Rio's place on the planet would have it so the games could start in the early afternoon , Getting tens of thousands for the Docks would not be much of a problem with 8am to noon as a time frame. 1800 were off the rotterdam in about 30 minutes and had departed for all points in the city. then about 450 crew were off the ship as well during that time frame. We had no buses waiting especially for us unlike the case with a charter for an Olympics or the city gearing up to have that facility in action for probably the world cup and the olympics. I would think parking lanes for buses would be increased as they were their for Tours from our ship. Couple of options to get from that area . Bus to the central rail Station . Bus to Maracana Direct . Bus to the subway stations all very short distances with road that take high ammounts

Rio with 18 cruise ships on those docks and then having Guanabara Bay with huge amounts of anchorage would certainly run out of cruise ships to lease before it ran out of room in the BAY. Rio seems to deal with Carnival very well each year and huge amounts of tourists. According to Figures on the Rio Carnival for 2007 about 700,000 people travel to Rio for that festival . One third are from aboard . About 225,000. GEE they have to be staying somewheres and 49,570 rooms would have to have about five people per room . Rio I would say has plenty of Rooms and the Cruise ships are probably not going to be the bulk of the Accoms. they would be Accoms for Vips as the Queen Mary was in Athens for the US basketball team and other high profile Us athletes/officials.

Rio would have to have atleast 35000 rooms considering the annual carnival intake of tourists and the Accom needs for this real tourism destination.

Please stop your jealous crap in Aid of Buenos Aires 2020 which is not even a Bid. I experienced myself as the Crazy uncle in the attic for a personality of a city. Argentina has a long way to go economically to be trusted by sponsors and the IOC to host a games after the burning of many a bank in 2001 . they would be more likely to host the winter games in Ushuaia. That is not a bad idea actually with the terrain in Ushuaia

Jim jones

[baron-pierreIV]

It's not so much accommodating 8-9-10 cruise ships on Rio's piers as actually getting like 9-10 cruise ships down there. Unless ROCO charters each ship like $8-10 million each (a very rough guess) for the 17 days PLUS getting them down and there back, will the cruise lines attract enough wealthy patrons who would want to go down there during the Olympic period, stay for a few days etc.? And will they also have enough of an outgoing volume to make the diversions profitable and fit with their overall sailing scenario?

I don't know what the cruising schedules are down there in July or August (which is their winter), but do the cruise lines go around the area during that time? Even the 5-6 night packages on board the cruise ships in Athens were pretty pricey.

They better give it a test first for 2014 if they expect to get some 15,000 extra rooms that way for 2016.

[FYI]

james,

how many fuc@ing times are "you" gonna get it WRONG, that Rome has hosted "twice"? Rome has only hosted ONCE, the 1960 Summer Games & that was it. Please get your facts right. Geez.

[james]

james,

how many fuc@ing times are "you" gonna get it WRONG, that Rome has hosted "twice"? Rome has only hosted ONCE, the 1960 Summer Games & that was it. Please get your facts right. Geez.

What are you talking about? How do you mean? C'mon!FYI.

[jim jones]

james,

how many fuc@ing times are "you" gonna get it WRONG, that Rome has hosted "twice"? Rome has only hosted ONCE, the 1960 Summer Games & that was it. Please get your facts right. Geez.

Rome hosted once yes but was awarded for 1908 which of course they could not do because of a volcano eruption (i can't remember the spelling)

the Games for 1908 were moved to London of course. Basically Rome hosted in 1960 and was awarded twice first time being 1908 and the second time being 1960 which they were able to actually host.

is that better FYI LOL.

Jim jones

[Sir Rols]

Rome hosted once yes but was awarded for 1908 which of course they could not do because of a volcano eruption (i can't remember the spelling)

the Games for 1908 were moved to London of course. Basically Rome hosted in 1960 and was awarded twice first time being 1908 and the second time being 1960 which they were able to actually host.

is that better FYI LOL.

Jim jones

Well, if you're using THAT sort of definition (though nobody else does), you'd have to include Tokyo and Helsinki in your list of repeat locations since WW2, both being scheduled to host 1940 but missing out because of the war. Not to mention that even with "legitimate" repeat hosts, you left out Athens.

[olympiaki-agones]

Let's be honest, the IOC voters in the last minute decide for cities that need to have lots of challenges to stage decent games. The cases like Athens is clear, where pollution, traffic, budget and plenty of white elephants all over the city didn't stop the voters to decide for Athens, and still they namage to do it well.

London was not the best choice either. Everyone knows that the city struggles a lot of traffic problem, the metro system all the time have problems, is very expensive and the buses take ages to reach it destination. Sochi need to build everything from zero.

Rio faces lots of problems for sure, butthe last decission comes from the IOC voters. It depends on the ability of convience each of them. Here the challenge is which city is better seducing the IOC.

[baron-pierreIV]

Let's be honest, the IOC voters in the last minute decide for cities that need to have lots of challenges to stage decent games. The cases like Athens is clear, where pollution, traffic, budget and plenty of white elephants all over the city didn't stop the voters to decide for Athens, and still they namage to do it well.

London was not the best choice either. Everyone knows that the city struggles a lot of traffic problem, the metro system all the time have problems, is very expensive and the buses take ages to reach it destination. Sochi need to build everything from zero.

Rio faces lots of problems for sure, butthe last decission comes from the IOC voters. It depends on the ability of convience each of them. Here the challenge is which city is better seducing the IOC.

It must go in cycles. I don't think Sydney had much tearing down of old neighborhoods to do, did they?