Why I Support A Beijing Boycott.

[Tatsh]

Boycott an OG is useless.

some happened during and after Moscu 1980 or Los Angeles 1984??

[Olympian2004]

I don't care you. Whether you boycott Beijing2008 or not, Beijing will centerly present the greatest Summer Olympics ever, and China will became one of the strongest nation in the world. I'm sure of that.

What has the Communist Party of China paid you for writing that?

Maybe you shouldn't believe too much in the lies your regime tells you. We in the Western world are well aware that the protests in Tibet were partially violent -- but have you ever asked yourself what has led to that violence? Are you well aware that the Tibetans, like many others in your country, long for freedom of speech, freedom of religion and free elections? Are you well aware that not everyone in China is as "convinced" of the policy of your rotten, intolerant regime as you pretend to be? Are you well aware that such kind of policy already crumbled to dust in Eastern Europe and that this could happen also to the regime you're pleading for?

[Olympian2004]

And, by the way, LiuTian: We as foreign observers and/or visitors define whether the Beijing Olympics will be the greatest ever, and not you Chinese yourselves.

[LA84]

As someone who lived through the boycotts of Montreal - Seoul and remember them vividly let me assure you - they accomplish zilch. Half the people don't even remember that Montreal and Seoul had boycotts. Moscow and Los Angeles are remembered as some of the most successful Olympics ever, their tit-for-tat boycotts just being a battle between to egomaniacs and their allies and merely a footnote now in Olympic history.

Shame on any country that chooses to boycott the opening to make some political statement. Most of the athletes will not win a medal and the ceremonies will be the highlight of their years of hard work. That ass Carter deprived our athletes of going to Moscow and it accomplished nothing outside of them receiving a painted medal on the White House lawn.

Subtlety is the key to making a statement about China's human rights record. A lasting image of Moscow is Britain and other countries marching in to the ceremonies under the Olympic flag and not their own. Something such as that speaks bigger volumes as a protest IMHO then just not showing up.

[Citius Altius Fortius]

I think a boycott would be counterproductive

The PR China wants to accomplish its "deserved position" in the world and tries to use the Olympic Games for this task, therefore it has a huge interest to host the "best Games", but to reach this task it depends on the public opinion outside the PR China.

A boycott would mean a reversal of this dependency on the public opinion outside the PR China.

E.g.: isn't it strange that the Republic of China can elect a new president this weekend (together with the election is a referendum if the Republic China should ask for UN-membership under the name "Taiwan") without the PR China hasn't started a huge navy maneuver in the sea strait between CHN and TPE or shot some misseles? I think the PR China wants no headlines in the western media.

Edited March 22, 2008 by Citius Altius Fortius

[passthedutchie]

I'm very angry about your comments. It shows how stupid you are. I'm laughing at you. You are typical poisoned one by the western media. You'd better go to read the Historical books, Tibet is a part of China for hundreds of years. Do you just listern to the western media how they say to you about Tibet ?? Do you really know Tibet ? If Tibet have 100 people, only 8-9 person clamored for independence. You just listern to this 8-9 person , Why don't you listern to the other 90 person's voise ? Tibet is a part of China for hundreds of years.

I don't care you. Whether you boycott Beijing2008 or not, Beijing will centerly present the greatest Summer Olympics ever, and China will became one of the strongest nation in the world. I'm sure of that.

Thanks for helping prove my point. You are another CCP supporter who believes the doctrine. The CCPs historical books are filled with lies, as are their media reports. You can continue to turn a blind eye to what is being done, and I can't anymore.

Tibet has historical ties with China. Tibet has been occupied by the Chinese in the past, and is occupied by it today. The people still want to be free, not controlled by a foreign power.

I listen to the media cautiously. The media I listen to are free media, unlike the one you blindly trust which feeds you lies and is controlled by the same people who promised human rights in China.

I hope the Beijing Olympics are a success. I love the games and what they stand for, but China's leaders are a danger to the world and its own people, and they should not be rewarded for suppressing freedom. I can't support the Beijing games anymore, and I will support any athlete who chooses not to go as well.

[Citius Altius Fortius]

Passthedutchie,

I understand your point of view, but what do you expect of a boycott? What do you think will the CCP do, if the western nations boycott the Beijing Olympics? Do you think it would stop the violence in Tibet?

[Rob2012]

Most of those screen shots can be easily explained as editorial mistakes; there is no conspiracy theory needed. Can you explain away the things which aren't highlighted in your pictures, such as the eyewitness accounts on the BBC page. No? Thought not.

AND AS IF TO PROVE MY POINT THAT THIS IS AN EDITORIAL MISTAKE NOT DELIBERATE MISREPRESENTATION:

http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/world/asia-pacific/7300312.stm

The BBC have rightly changed the caption underneath the picture. Do you reckon they would have done that if they were out to deliberately mislead?

[passthedutchie]

Please note that I support anyone who chooses to boycott the games as a personal choice. I don't think that official governmental boycotts will achieve anything.

A forced boycott would achieve nothing because it is not the will of the people, and would throw fuel on the geopolitical fire. If our athletes choose to stand up and not compete in protest, our citizens and business cancel their tickets and turn off their TVs, and our politicians choose to not attend the functions, we can have an impact on China.

If we continue to pussyfoot around the issue of human rights in China, they will continue to rule with brutality. I can't support a games that was awarded based on a lie, and I can't support a facade that will be taken down after two weeks and replaced with the same injustices!

I guess it comes down to the fact that our governments fail in dealing with human rights in China. They always bow to the pressure of business and cowardley delay or avoid any serious discussion. China is only going to gain economic power from here on in, and our governments will grow in their dependence on China.

I thoroughly enjoy the Olympics and what it stands for. But I guess my love of Olympic sport isn't as great as my respect for basic human rights. When will enough be enough for you, CAF? Do you wish to reward the half billion LiuTians out there brainwashed by the CCP?

[Rob2012]

Please note that I support anyone who chooses to boycott the games as a personal choice. I don't think that official governmental boycotts will achieve anything.

The title of this thread is misleading. Is it possible to change titles of threads once they've been posted? I'm not sure. If it is, I'd do that because the title isn't doing you any favours.

[Citius Altius Fortius]

Please note that I support anyone who chooses to boycott the games as a personal choice.

mmhh, o.k. I understand now what you mean - I am on the standard of knowledge that nobody of the western athletes is forced to participate in Bejing - they can choose, but they have to bear in mind that their sportive careers depend on their participation at Olympic Games.

When will enough be enough for you, CAF?

That is a very difficult question since I am not in the situation of an athlete, who is member of the olympic team - an athlete has to decide not only if four or more years of work out/training was for nothing but also if their future will change, because of a boycott (you don't get commercial contracts without success)...

Do you wish to reward the half billion LiuTians out there brainwashed by the CCP?

No, of course not, but do you think they would be informed by the Chinese media, that some athletes decided to boycott the Games? I doubt that - I think the biggest chance to change China is, that western visitors and athletes go to China as much as possible and get in contact with chinese people. The chinese government won't be able to control every single private contact between citizens of Beijing and foreigners = therefore the western visitors and athletes are might be able to sowing the seeds of democracy...

Edited March 22, 2008 by Citius Altius Fortius

[jiggler]

Of course it´s terrible what is happening in Tibet right now but I don´t think that boycotting the games would have any effect of it. The only ones who are bothered by a boycott are the olympic movement and the athletes who work for years for the olympics.

If a ggovernment wants to do something against this they should DO something against it not just show that hey sympathize with the Tibetans and a boycott wouldn´t change anything, I think.

As I said before, I do not support any of Chinas actions in Tibet but a boycott is the wrong way.

[passthedutchie]

mmhh, o.k. I understand now what you mean - I am on the standard of knowledge that nobody of the western athletes is forced to participate in Bejing - they can choose, but they have to bear in mind that their sportive careers depend on their participation at Olympic Games.

It's not just the athletes. Everyone has a choice, but nobody can be forced to boycott. I said that in the first post. It is unfair to force any athlete to stay away given how their lives are negatively affected. But you are not an athlete, and you can choose how you participate as well, as a spectator, customer, or television viewer. I am choosing to ignore the Olympics given recent events, and everybody has a choice to do the same. I will, however, support the athletes should they request not to go.

That is a very difficult question since I am not in the situation of an athlete, who is member of the olympic team - an athlete has to decide not only if four or more years of work out/training was for nothing but also if their future will change, because of a boycott (you don't get commercial contracts without success)...

You are not an athlete but you can choose how you support the games. You can support your athletes in other ways.

But I asked when it will be enough for you as a regular person. You don't have the pressures of an amateur athlete, so what is your tipping point??

No, of course not, but do you think they would be informed by the Chinese media, that some athletes decided to boycott the Games? I doubt that - I think the biggest chance to change China is, that western visitors and athletes go to China as much as possible and get in contact with chinese people. The chinese government won't be able to control every single private contact between citizens of Beijing and foreigners = therefore the western visitors and athletes are might be able to sowing the seeds of democracy...

That's a nice thought but unlikely to happen. Hey maybe they will promise to improve human rights again!!! Maybe they will do it next time!! Maybe we can trust them!!

[passthedutchie]

If a ggovernment wants to do something against this they should DO something against it not just show that hey sympathize with the Tibetans and a boycott wouldn´t change anything, I think.

As I said before, I do not support any of Chinas actions in Tibet but a boycott is the wrong way.

Easier said than done. What have western governments done to pressure China?? Has anything worked?? They tried to bribe them with the Olympics, and that is back firing.

So what would you suggest in place of a boycott? What will make China change their brutal ways?? Everyone says a boycott will fail, so what will work?

[Citius Altius Fortius]

When Beijing was chosen 7 year ago it was clear that the PR of China won't change into a democracy until August 2008, but it was predictable that something like now would happen in Tibet.

But back to your question - no it is not "enough" for me, since I think that the Chinese government didn't fight back as hard as they could, due the government fears the public opinion in the western world.

If I boycott the Games now, then the Chinese government doesn't pay any attention anymore toward the public opinion in the western world - I will even watch the Olympic Games very closely!

Edited March 22, 2008 by Citius Altius Fortius

[james]

Easier said than done. What have western governments done to pressure China?? Has anything worked?? They tried to bribe them with the Olympics, and that is back firing.

So what would you suggest in place of a boycott? What will make China change their brutal ways?? Everyone says a boycott will fail, so what will work?

I said dialogue will work as China is becoming more civilized these days. Chinese are humans and I believe they will understand where they are wrong if properly put to them(government). If we think China is too powerful and ornery to listen to the world on its human rights violation we should also know that no nation is independent of the world. So, I think China can't segregate itself from the world or else will witness an economic chaos. It shouldn't think resources from Africa are enough to keep its economy going.

If you think dialogue won't work, Passthedutchie, you can subscribe to a primitive military use of force and see now what the outcome is almost like in Tibet, not to mention Iraq(though looks like this one called for it).

This would be easy to solve if all heads come to know that China can think on the right way too as they are more fragile than ever before this time.

[passthedutchie]

You're right, nobody thought they would become a democracy, but human rights have not improved. Not one bit.

I'm optimistic that the meeting with the Dalai Lama will yield some good results, but the demands of Tibetans are not too much! They are asking for basic human rights.

But back to your question - no it is not "enough" for me, since I think that the Chinese government didn't fight back as hard as they could, due the government fears the public opinion in the western world.

Who am I, being so negative. Thank Goodness for the Olympics!! China showed restraint because of the spotlight on them with the Olympics. Had it not been for the Olympics, they would have laid the smack-down!

I can't tell you have to feel, but if you're comfortable (or you find it acceptable) with the level of China's control on the media coverage in Tibet, their control on the people of Tibet, and their use of brutal force, well, than that's what is acceptable to you.

I choose to put myself in the shoes of the oppressed. Another Olympics will come in four years, but they might never have a chance to shine light on their cause like the one before them now! I see the Olympics coming and China not sharing the Olympic ideals. Maybe for two weeks it will.

Basic human rights. That is all they ask for.

[Citius Altius Fortius]

Basic human rights. That is all they ask for.

It would be great if Olympic Games had such impact, but we can't assume it...

Imagine China would say now, that Tibet gets autonomy - the western nations would applaude - then the Olympic Games come and would be a marvellous success - in november the chinese army would invade Tibet again - what could we do? Nothing...

Therefore I think a boycott of the Olympic Games would be counterproductive - the chinese people have to get in contact with western visitors and athletes...

The change must come from inside China - from the Chinese.

Edited March 22, 2008 by Citius Altius Fortius

[passthedutchie]

I said dialogue will work as China is becoming more civilized these days. Chinese are humans and I believe they will understand where they are wrong if properly put to them(government). If we think China is too powerful and ornery to listen to the world on its human rights violation we should also know that no nation is independent of the world. So, I think China can't segregate itself from the world or else will witness an economic chaos. It shouldn't think resources from Africa are enough to keep its economy going.

So then the Chinese will understand with Tibet, eh? Is that why most Chinese believe that Tibet is part of China?

If you think dialogue won't work, Passthedutchie, you can subscribe to a primitive military use of force and see now what the outcome is almost like in Tibet, not to mention Iraq(though looks like this one called for it).

Good one. I am a big believer in dialogue, but it has its limits. China has nearly reached that limit.

There are many factors affecting change - and military force should be last on the list, however you seem to subscribe that military is necessary when dialogue fails.

I don't. There are other forms of protest that do not result in violence.

Why do you get to demand dialogue when Tibetans can't? You can continue to delay their access to basic human rights by calling for dialogue. It is time for action.

What would you like to talk to the Chinese about in regards to Tibet?

This would be easy to solve if all heads come to know that China can think on the right way too as they are more fragile than ever before this time.

More fragile? Sure, things are touchy there, but it's not 1989, and China is far more powerful than it ever has been. It will only continue to get more powerful.

[passthedutchie]

It would be great if Olympic Games had such impact, but we can't assume it...

We all did seven years ago.

Imagine China would say now, that Tibet gets autonomy - the western nations would applaude - then the Olympic Games come and would be a marvellous success - in november the chinese army would invade Tibet again - what could we do? Nothing...

Boy, thank goodness we didn't have that attitude with Germany!

Eventually CAF, you have to commit and say enough is enough. Right now I'm upset enough to limit my contributions to China only because of the CCP. Chinese people are wonderful and only a product of their government, no different than any other culture that has had to make realizations and changes to their society.

Every country has its major changes in society. It will become more difficult in time.

Canada to this day struggles with Aboriginal issues, and it is likely come back to haunt them prior to 2010 unless dealt with. Do you think its acceptable for Canada to take the measures the CCP has taken with Tibet? Even some of them?

Therefore I think a boycott of the Olympic Games would be counterproductive - the chinese people have to get in contact with western visitors and athletes...

The change must come from inside China - from the Chinese.

Two weeks of "western" influence will do little to nothing to the common Chinese. They will have years of CCP influence once we all leave.

[james]

A word is enough for the wise. The whole boycott is still going to end up on the dailogue table after whatever method you are ascertaining to here. If you look well, the pressure has already been there and people are dieing everyday in Tibet. Don't you think it is time to come to a point and call both side for a better understanding? Do you think China can't agree to the the basic human rights Tibetians are asking for when both sides are called to the round table? C'mon, we should stop taking the long road to solution.

[cfm Jeremie]

Boy, thank goodness we didn't have that attitude with Germany!

Comparing Chinese government acts with those of the Nazis back in 1936 is an exaggeration and could actually be counterproductive, giving the Chinese food for their "the West is biased" counterattack.

[NOC]

As I have been to China many times over the past 4 years leading to the Games, and will move there in the coming months in preparation for the Games I have a few opinions to add.

1) The machine will roll on - We will see a Mexico Style protest somewhere on the dais and it will bring embarrassment to the Chinese

2) Boycott the OC is a very affective move - if one Government in the world does it, and only 1, it is enough to cause embarrassment and the Chinese will loose face

3) Many people are enthusiastic about the games. When it will be over they will think it is the Best Games Ever, but as said correctly, the overseas public and most importantly the media will decide on this. With the current actions of suppression within the media, there is NO WAY the international media are going to “proclaim” the Best Ever Tag.

I spoke to a group of Uni students who were Chinese, Taiwanese and a few from Hong Kong in a recent public forum. The topic came up about if The Olympic Games were helping China. It was amazing to see the reaction of some of the participants. When an Australian asked the question "How do you feel about communism" one girl was extremely distressed that another had said "What our government tells us is lies - if I would never have come to Australia and realised what freedom is about I would never have known any different". It was almost as if she could not believe the other student was saying such “horrible ideas and propaganda” as she put it. Many people were amazed!

As China changes from a producing nation to an economic powerhouse and a capitalist market, education and progression will lead to change - knowledge is powerful.

Freedom and democracy is sacred and revered by us all - it is the cornerstone and the backbone to western society and should never be taken for granted. Only the Chinese people can make the change and an embarrassing situation during the Olympic Games may not be shown on TV or print in China, but it will forever been seen, heard, known through the rest of the world, and eventually all of China will come to realise the oppressive situation they are exposed to.

[james]

Sorry to say this NOC that boycott seems to complicate the whole thing from the look of things and China might be taking on the defense too. Believe me, a round table talk by both sides would save more lives from deing. Not only that other better means can be taken during the dialogue.

[LA84]

It would be great if Olympic Games had such impact, but we can't assume it...

Imagine China would say now, that Tibet gets autonomy - the western nations would applaude - then the Olympic Games come and would be a marvellous success - in november the chinese army would invade Tibet again - what could we do? Nothing...

Therefore I think a boycott of the Olympic Games would be counterproductive - the chinese people have to get in contact with western visitors and athletes...

The change must come from inside China - from the Chinese.

^^^^^^ The most intelligent post of this whole thread. CAF - you excite me sometimes.

Look, many good points made here and I have to plant flowers now so not going to address them all.

Look - what are the most enduring protests of the modern games? Not the Soviet and U.S. boycotts. It is the the black protests of '68 and the British and their allies marching into Moscow under the Olympic Flag in '80.

Less is more sometimes.