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So Much For Improving Human Rights, Huh?


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it's shame that we can't connect the topic about "10 reported..." ...

It really shows someting...

But i could know these things from BBC website.

sorry again... cant read...no connection...

I could be in BBC,but i cant read news about other things...

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you can do your part by shutting your own wallets and not buying anything "made in China." It may not have the drama of an Olympic boycott nor will it produce instant results, but collectively it will be more effective in the long run.

Ohhh no, Chinese people have nothing wrong.

It could make the poor become poorer.

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:mellow: Thanx for the updates by our China GB residents, it must be hard for you all. Take care.

i have to say, that's really shame for all Chinese people all over the world. But that's the situation.

Different from western world, China do have a long and malformation feudal history.

We have so large and big population. Situation of the whole society is so complicated. Many history problems were left to handle.

Ancient China must did many things like wars and other things,good,great or bad, unfair...

All the things we see today are called "cause and effect" in Buddhist. Do you believe Reincarnation?

Human Rights growing in China still need time i think, but we still could see some progresses. i live in China, im a Chinese, so i think i have the right to say something. All we could do are just wait within a normal mind and a Buddha's heart. All the things are need time, we could wait thousands of years of feudal time, tens of years is shorter for us,i think.

Policy changing do need time in so complicated society with the biggest population and the longest history all over the world. That's all we need to know.

Your attentions are the way that could help China better. Thank you so much.

We are still not alone, because of you...

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Well, I strongly doubt there will be any formal large-scale boycott organised. The AOC has ruled out any such move today:

SYDNEY, March 17 AAP - The Australian Olympic Committee will not support any boycott of the Beijing Olympics because of human rights concerns, AOC president John Coates said today.

Recent unrest in Tibet has raised the prospect of protests or possible boycotts of the Beijing Games.

However Coates said Australia endorsed the IOC's policy that boycotting the Games would achieve nothing except disadvantaging athletes.

``The Olympic Games have shown by example the benefits of bringing together people from all races and religions to practise sport in a spirit of friendship and fair play,'' Coates said in an open letter, released today.

``It is not the role of the IOC to take the lead in addressing such issues as human rights or political matters, which are most appropriately addressed by governments or concerned organisations.

``The fact that the Games in Beijing put the spotlight on the country, thereby encouraging discussion on issues of interest to the global community is a positive outcome of bringing the Olympic movement to China.

``Australia has participated in every Olympic Games of the modern era and the Games in Beijing will be no different.''

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Well, I strongly doubt there will be any formal large-scale boycott organised. The AOC has ruled out any such move today:

No boycott by Germany, too:

Tagesschau - Bundesregierung lehnt Olympia-Boykott ab (The Federal government disapprove a boycott of the Olympics)

Bundesinnenminister Schäuble (Federal secretary of state): "Es dürfe vom Sport nichts gefordert werden, was er nicht leisten könne" ("You can't demand of the sport, what it can't afford")

"Der Sport kann seine Wirkung nur entfalten, wenn die Olympischen Spiele stattfinden" ("The sport can unfold its value, if the Olympic Games takes place")

Edited by Citius Altius Fortius
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Its kinda strange - although I already bookd my flights and bought some tickets etc. I am not in the mood for the Olympics in Beijing for a while now. I really was looking forward for Athens and Torino and I am also cant wait for Vancouver - but Beijing????

I am also thinking about cancelling my trip, cause of the things going on in China - we as spectators will see only the things we are allowed to see - and what is that for an Olympics, while people in Tibet are slaughted and innocent, political Opponents sitting in Prison (did you hear about the man, who did criticise on Chinas HIV politics, he was arrested at home for onth and now he is in prison - just because he tried to talk about an important issue??).

Maybe a Boycot of most of the western NOCs all together would be an option - sure its bad foe the athletes - but the Olympics in China wont lead to an open dialogue and they wont improve the Human right situation. If theres a bigger Boycot, the chinese regime would losse its face, cause so far we only saw a fake picture of a modern and dynamic China - also what we saw of the Games Preparation so far was a fake of an "open city" - I could spew when I read the Games Slogan "one world, one dream" .

The Beijing Games are similar to the Berlin 1936 Games. In 1936, Germany showed the world what a great country it was and for 2 weeks in August 1936, the Values of peace and unity were celebrated in a totalitarian country - while Jews were haunted, political opponents, disabled and Homosexuals were persecuted.

Also in 1936, many people thought that an Olympic games will lead to Dialogue on political issues with Germany.

Sure both regimes are not easy to compare - but victims of a regime are victims.

The Games in 2008 gonna be just a big deal for the chinese economy & government and for anyone who is stupid enough to believe in the colourful pictures of competitions and ceremonies.

Awarding the Games to China back in 2001 was one of the wordt decisions of the IOC ever (Toronto would have been the right choice): Now the IOC is paying the price, cause it losses its face either: You cant emphasise on the Values of Humanity in your global Guidelines and go to China for celebrating the Games and emphasising that Sport never has a political component is just a joke.

But we all know how it worked back in 2001: Samaranch was haunting for the Peace Nobel Price for years. During cold war, he favoured an Olympic Games in West and East Berlin and after 1990, Beijing became his favourit.

As hard as it sounds: A Boycot of the Beijing Games is an option.

Edited by tominger
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Its kinda strange - although I already bookd my flights and bought some tickets etc. I am not in the mood for the Olympics in Beijing for a while now. I really was looking forward for Athens and Torino and I am also cant wait for Vancouver - but Beijing????

I am also thinking about cancelling my trip, cause of the things going on in China - we as spectators will see only the things we are allowed to see - and what is that for an Olympics, while people in Tibet are slaughted and innocent, political Opponents sitting in Prison (did you hear about the man, who did criticise on Chinas HIV politics, he was arrested at home for onth and now he is in prison - just because he tried to talk about an important issue??).

Maybe a Boycot of most of the western NOCs all together would be an option - sure its bad foe the athletes - but the Olympics in China wont lead to an open dialogue and they wont improve the Human right situation. If theres a bigger Boycot, the chinese regime would losse its face, cause so far we only saw a fake picture of a modern and dynamic China - also what we saw of the Games Preparation so far was a fake of an "open city" - I could spew when I read the Games Slogan "one world, one dream" .

The Beijing Games are similar to the Berlin 1936 Games. In 1936, Germany showed the world what a great country it was and for 2 weeks in August 1936, the Values of peace and unity were celebrated in a totalitarian country - while Jews were haunted, political opponents, disabled and Homosexuals were persecuted.

Also in 1936, many people thought that an Olympic games will lead to Dialogue on political issues with Germany.

Sure both regimes are not easy to compare - but victims of a regime are victims.

The Games in 2008 gonna be just a big deal for the chinese economy & government and for anyone who is stupid enough to believe in the colourful pictures of competitions and ceremonies.

Awarding the Games to China back in 2001 was one of the wordt decisions of the IOC ever (Toronto would have been the right choice): Now the IOC is paying the price, cause it losses its face either: You cant emphasise on the Values of Humanity in your global Guidelines and go to China for celebrating the Games and emphasising that Sport never has a political component is just a joke.

But we all know how it worked back in 2001: Samaranch was haunting for the Peace Nobel Price for years. During cold war, he favoured an Olympic Games in West and East Berlin and after 1990, Beijing became his favourit.

As hard as it sounds: A Boycot of the Beijing Games is an option.

You'd better come to Beijing, you could have a real feeling about you want to know...

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I guess what bugs me the most about this situation is the fact that when people raised China's human rights stance and record as a reason not to award the 2008 Games to Beijing, the official response from the IOC and the Chinese government was that giving China the Games would put so much attention on Beijing and the Chinese government that they would be forced to consider new ways of managing their people and country. (Paraphrasing, of course.)

In fact, this is not the case, and a mere 6 months before the opening ceremonies, China is blatantly cracking-down on human rights and dissension in Tibet -- thumbing its nose at world opinion.

I just wish the IOC would have been honest and said "we don't care about nor wish to get involved in China's human rights issues. We think the Games afford us a wonderful financial opportunity, not to mention the virtual guarantee of a flawless Games with wonderful ceremonies and inspiring venues, due to China's ability to engage masses of people and resources with no worries about internal scrutiny or budget-watching."

At least that would be honest. But this crap suggesting the IOC and Games can influence a nation towards benevolence and respect for its citizens just makes me want to gag....

Edited by juan antonio
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Juan Antonio, I do absolutely agree. This situation is almost worse than in Berlin in 1936 when the Nazis tried to fool the world by pretending to be cosmopolitan and tolerant during the Olympics -- and many observers believed that the regime wasn't "as bad as it originally seemed" and one could "live in peace with the Nazis". Now, the Chinese have debunked their "peace and harmony" illusion already before the Games.

I can only say once more: Never again! Olympic Games (or any other big sports event which relies on true understanding and tolerance between all people) should never be awarded to a totalitarian country again, regardless of its economic or demographic importance. I'm sick of those bastards governing those countries who believe that the rest of the world is stupid and believes their dirty lies.

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I guess what bugs me the most about this situation is the fact that when people raised China's human rights stance and record as a reason not to award the 2008 Games to Beijing, the official response from the IOC and the Chinese government was that giving China the Games would put so much attention on Beijing and the Chinese government that they would be forced to consider new ways of managing their people and country. (Paraphrasing, of course.)

In fact, this is not the case, and a mere 6 months before the opening ceremonies, China is blatantly cracking-down on human rights and dissension in Tibet -- thumbing its nose at world opinion.

I just wish the IOC would have been honest and said "we don't care about nor wish to get involved in China's human rights issues. We think the Games afford us a wonderful financial opportunity, not to mention the virtual guarantee of a flawless Games with wonderful ceremonies and inspiring venues, due to China's ability to engage masses of people and resources with no worries about internal scrutiny or budget-watching."

At least that would be honest. But this crap suggesting the IOC and Games can influence a nation towards benevolence and respect for its citizens just makes me want to gag....

The IOC has always been deluded, look at the reasons they gave the games to Seoul in 1981, other then bribary the IOC said it would benefit and open up Korea. Ironically this was the case and many agree that the changes in Korea that took place between being award the games and hosting them was unbelievable. But this has deluded the IOC in thinking they have this kind of power. China changes in its own ways, they are a reactionary regime that only tackles problems when they become too large to ignore. The world is so desperate for China to be its industrial park that they will refuse to put pressure on the government to change.

Juan, nice to see you a round again.

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Well, Rogge and Samaranch sure have egg on their faces now. I have always miantained it was inevitable the Beijing Games would get politicised.

That said, I am strongly against a boycott. It's just far too divisive and bitter a move to make.

What about the formula used by some, like Australia and the UK, at Moscow?

First, leave it up to individual athletes' consciences whether to compete or not. Actually, particuipation at any games is always up to an athlete's conscience _ nobody is forcing them to ever compete.

Then, those nations that are offended by what is happening have their team march under the Olympic Flag rather then their national flag _ or no flag at all!

I think you may not see an official boycott from Nations or National Olympics committees but rather Athletes making the decision to opp out of the Games on their own.

This time in regards to Boycotts the IOC punishment is your country does not take part in the next games automatically. This prevents boycotts officially either for the original reason or as tit for tat as we saw with the Eastern block for LA 84. To much money is at stake to sit out two olympics.

Would it be in the interest of an athlete to BYpass 2008 ? All of your Pro Athletes like Basketball Players have nothing to gain playing in the Olympics except the potential of a Career ending injury . Same could be said for Soccer . National pride of winning a medal for a pro-athlete may be blunted if you have a 1989 situation months before in Tibet.

A sailor or Fencer is not going to get a big payday or endorsements from winning a gold medal in Beijing but it is certainly what they strive for as the ultimate prize.

The problem may be the funding investment a country has made in an athlete that would be hard to swallow for the people back home.

You could have 50 percent of the people say "what am I paying for with these Athletes that will not represent their country at the olympics"

or on the other side of the Coin People saying that sending the athletes is a thumbs up to the Chinese Human Rights abuses.

China holds the cards while Tibet can make China look bad.

I personally would not want to see a gun put to an athletes head to go if it conflicted with their Basic Values either pro or anti-boycott. The core moral values are certainly what the Olympics should be all about . Sadly that has been lost a long time ago as this becomes a contest of Political, Nation Boosterism, Architectual Peeing contests and the all might Dollar.

I think China will never change no matter what or at least for another 25 to 30 years.

I agree Samaranch certainly has egg on his face and Rogge has to deal with the problem which he is doing badly at. The

Problem is Rogge's hands are tied with the awarding of the Games to Beijing. Rogge Seems like a good man but he certainly has some problems now that could go beyond the bribery scandal for Salt Lake City 2002. A blood bath in Tibet would not inspire most in America to watch even with a unique Beijing hosting.

If this comes out badly we could see a further decline in the interest in the games. Between Steroid Cheats, Politics and Giantanism you have a generation of people that have seen this crap for decades and then the young people who might have a couple of more reasons to Watch the X Games on Espn as opposed to the Olympics on NBC. The Declining fortunes and divided interests in the youth Demographic is why we have a Youth Olympics in 2010 in Singapore. Frankly it probably has to be done but does it indeed water down the brand?

I think that China may rule itself out of a 2018 Winter Olympics or World Cup if things keep up. Of Course once you have hosted the Summer Games is such an over the top fashion what would be the point ?

jim jones

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Your attentions are the way that could help China better. Thank you so much.

We are still not alone, because of you...

That last line of yours, Xu Wen-Ting, right there. It really touched me!!

If only for that, I am grateful for the invention of the internet.

No, Xu, you are not alone. Your global friends -- and the de Coubertins -- here on GB are with you all the way -- if not in deed, then in spirit.

Edited by baron-pierreIV
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The IOC has always been deluded, look at the reasons they gave the games to Seoul in 1981, other then bribary the IOC said it would benefit and open up Korea. Ironically this was the case and many agree that the changes in Korea that took place between being award the games and hosting them was unbelievable. But this has deluded the IOC in thinking they have this kind of power. China changes in its own ways, they are a reactionary regime that only tackles problems when they become too large to ignore. The world is so desperate for China to be its industrial park that they will refuse to put pressure on the government to change.

Juan, nice to see you a round again.

What choice did the IOc have with 1988? Nagoya Japan or Seoul ? First time on the Asian Mainland in fast emerging economy. Bribery of course is there

but the IOC had little choice a city Building on the legacy of the 1986 Asian would have the IOC hope to eliminate Cost Overrun Headlines in the world press.

In 1981 that would be the big consideration as the olympics was on its knees . with a mere 5 bidders for the 1988 summer and winter games combined plus the 1980 winter games and 1984 summer games being awarded unopposed the IOC certainly had few options. Exercising moral judgments on the grounds of the government of South Korea would porbably not have been wise. Nagoya probably had a greater possibility of Cost overrun headlines and thus further limiting interest of Cities worldwide of actually bidding in the future.

As was shown in the next bid rounds LA 84 restored confidence . The bid for the 1992 winter games had 6 candidates for the summer games and 7 candidates for the winter games. with Seuol or Calgary not having the Horror stories of finances out of control in the run up to the next bid you see the choice was wise. Nagoya, Falun, Sweden, Cortina d'Ampezzo, Italy

we will never know for 1988.

jim jones

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Perhaps a viable alternative is for the foreign media and maybe even special guests and athletes to put pressure on the Chinese government by way of some honest reporting during the Games. One has to wonder whether or not China would risk apprehending a foreigner who spoke out honestly about or editorialized about what they see. Athletes wearing some common small marker like a ribbon for example may just be enough to ensure that China is suitably embarrassed for continuing to occupy Tibet.

I agree that a boycott is not the best solution. It is indeed unfair to the athletes and others, and particularly unfair to the Chinese people who are enthusiastically awaiting the arrival of the Games. But China must also realize that it they are going to host this prestigious event which is supposed to promote peace and humanity, they must play the game as well.

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No country is free of bad human right record and China has be use as scapegoat to send a message to the developing world how powerand intelligent they can persuade, any nation willing to grown, to dance to their tune. On the other hand I believe Tibetans deserve the right to govern themselves if the so ask for it.

But, is it neccessarily right to use the Olympic as a means in achieving this aim? Cos Chicago Olympic vs All Sharperton was unanimously disagreed with here on gamesbids.com.

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No country is free of bad human right record and China has be use as scapegoat to send a message to the developing world how powerand intelligent they can persuade, any nation willing to grown, to dance to their tune. On the other hand I believe Tibetans deserve the right to govern themselves if the so ask for it.

But, is it neccessarily right to use the Olympic as a means in achieving this aim? Cos Chicago Olympic vs All Sharperton was unanimously disagreed with here on gamesbids.com.

what r u talking about?

How can you even compare the Beijing - Tibet siutation with Chicago - Al Sharpton? One is a country's sovereignty and people's freedom. The other is a candidate city vs. a ridiculous charlatan who is soon to be joined by Barrack Obama's equally inflammatory minister?

Jeex, james, kindly use coherent English which makes sense, please.

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what r u talking about?

How can you even compare the Beijing - Tibet siutation with Chicago - Al Sharpton? One is a country's sovereignty and people's freedom. The other is a candidate city vs. a ridiculous charlatan who is soon to be joined by Barrack Obama's equally inflammatory minister?

Jeex, james, kindly use coherent English which makes sense, please.

Defend what you want to defend, mister. Human rights violated remains human rights - be it national or a city.

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In the name of human rights? YES. Any legal avenue is right. And any nation that doesn't feel it can stand-up to scrutiny on the world stage shouldn't bid on the Olympics.

China seemed to have pushed the right to host an olympics since 1990, even post the Tianamen Square massacre.

How they have slipped unter the radar is through it's capitalist style economy way of dealing with the outside world. Threatening no "free trade" deals with those who speak out. - Hence the reason why the likes of NZ refuse to murmer above a low mumble. Their huge "organised" human resorces and industrial might has ensured China has a loud voice on the international stage as the second superpower. India has only grabbed the initiative in the last thirty years and is well on the way to equalling China, but it won't be for another 30 or so years yet.

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Just a question:

Let's say they is a boycott of the western nations - does anybody think that this will help Tibet right now in the situation?

Would the chinese government stop sending troops to Lhasa? Would the imprisoned people will be freed? Would the violence be stopped?

Quite frankly, I really doubt Tibet will ever be an independent nation. In fact, I really doubt there is any benefit to China, it's people or the world to see the nation broken apart. Chaos in China is not something that the world should really wish for.

But the Tibetan do deserve some respect and acknowledgement within their ancestral homeland. Their culture needs to be nurtured and treasured. They deserve some say in their home. China's policies seem to be about quashing anything like this. Repression seems to be the knee-jerk response by the Chinese Government to any perceived challenge to their authority. It seems dialogue, plurality and compromise as we know it in most of our nations is not something that is ever considered in China. I had hoped that China opening up more to the world, and the Olympics, would help sow the seeds of such discourse in China, but the events of the past week seem to have been a reality check on such idealism. I don't think a boycott would help _ if anything, i think it would probably have the opposite effect and have China react by tightening the screws further. But I do think the Games can be levereged for some type of statement by the world that so many of us consider what is happening within the country is unacceptable.

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I'm in Beijing and I can answer "yes" as obviously I can get to this thread right now. However, the thread below about the r!ots in T!b@t is completely blocked by the Chinese Net Nanny filters. Same on other internet sites (including the major news ones like cnn.com, etc.) on those particular stories. Access by proxy server only, and even then you have to keep changing proxies as the Great Firewall staff tracks and shuts them off. I have some access to foreign language TV media (cnnasia, bbcworld, tvasie) and since Friday night, stories on this situation are blacked out, except for the "propaganda" heavily edited clips produced by China Central Television. Oddly, just an hour ago an excerpt of a new interview with the D. L@m@ popped up--the censors must have been out for a coffee break and failed to hit the interrupt button. Really though, the vast majority of the population with access only to Chinese news media are being given only very sketchy and incomplete stories that of course, revile the T!ib@t@ns as hooligans and splittists, who will shortly receive their just punishment if they don't step back in line. Sorry about the symbols use, but I'm trying to avoid getting my gamesbids access or even my entire Internet access blocked (yes the Chinese ISP has the ability to do this).

Although I have always deplored the decision to give the PRC the Olympics, it is a done deal and will go on in some form or fashion. I don't advocate a boycott because the Chinese gov't just isn't responsive to that sort of in-your-face thing--though it would shake them up and cause loss of face. Cfm jeremie has it correctly--the one thing the Chinese will listen to and change policies is when you hit them in the wallet. And the smartest way for other gov'ts to do this is not gorilla-style political chest-beating, but to quietly and consistently across the board slap additional bureaucratic pressures on all goods coming from China into their countries. As individuals, you can do your part by shutting your own wallets and not buying anything "made in China." It may not have the drama of an Olympic boycott nor will it produce instant results, but collectively it will be more effective in the long run.

Interesting article on what IS getting through on Chinese web sites:

BEIJING, March 17 AFP - China has allowed vitriolic attacks against Tibetans and calls for ``death to separatists'' to be posted on websites, amid anti-Chinese protests in Tibet.

With only the officially approved version of events being published in the state-run press, thousands of people expressed their anger on the internet against Tibetans who have protested against Chinese rule of the remote region.

``There is only one word for these separatists who are trying to destroy our happiness - kill,'' wrote a surfer from the south-western city of Chongqing in one of the more than 27,000 posts on the subject on popular portal Sina.com.

``Death to separatists,'' wrote a Beijing contributor, a view that was endorsed by a resident of remote Qinghai, which borders Tibet, who wrote the character for death seven times.

One of the very few messages that called for restraint, from central Henan province, said: ``No to violence! Preserve harmony!''

The only footage of the protests broadcast by China's media so far has been a short clip showing Tibetan rioters in Lhasa destroying Chinese shops.

Nothing has been released on the resulting crackdown by police that the Tibetan government-in-exile said has left hundreds of Tibetans dead.

China has worked very hard to keep a tight lid on all news out of Lhasa, with foreign journalists being denied access and foreign tourists ordered out of the city.

China's censors have also blocked access to most foreign internet sites, as well as to YouTube, after it showed video footage of the demonstrations in Tibet and the capital Lhasa under virtual siege.

Similarly, there has been no mention of the complaints by the Tibetans that they say led to the protests, such as religious repression and brutal treatment of anyone who expresses support for exiled spiritual leader the Dalai Lama.

China was singled out last week by press freedom advocate Reporters without Borders for being an enemy of the internet.

AFP

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Interesting article on what IS getting through on Chinese web sites:

China has always stated that Tibet is part of China, part of the loose formed former empire.

Would the World be happy if Tibet was to be created a Hong Kong and Macau like semi autonomous state? Probibly, even if it means not allowing the Dalai Lama to return? Maybe.

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