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Your Torch Relay 2008


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We must show our Chinese friends compassion and understand. Any symbol of peace, humanity and fellowship will have a positive impact on the people of China and the people of the world. I believe that it is a beautiful occurrence to have the torch reach Lhasa to give the Tibetan a symbol of hope. China's actions of power, control and coercion will fall away and all that will be left is the shining symbol the Olympic torch is.

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IT is a fact that Beijing 2008 Olympic torch relay is not that much energetic and colourful as compared to ATHENS 2004 torch relay. I think BOCOG did the main mistake when they brought the flame directly to their home country, this clears off all the suspense of the global audience, If a persone has already brought a bag of groceries from market to home than why he will bring it back to the road again??

Maybe he found the stuff he bought is out of date. :rolleyes:

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We must show our Chinese friends compassion and understand. Any symbol of peace, humanity and fellowship will have a positive impact on the people of China and the people of the world. I believe that it is a beautiful occurrence to have the torch reach Lhasa to give the Tibetan a symbol of hope. China's actions of power, control and coercion will fall away and all that will be left is the shining symbol the Olympic torch is.

You words always seem very peaceful and sweet. :rolleyes: Are you really Dalai Lama?

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No one cares? Really? Have you had your head in the sand or have you just been watching too much Chinese State News?

People care more (and more people care) about the sacred values of human rights than they do about the so-called sacred values of the torch relay and all it suposedly represents. Just because you don't like something it doesn't automatically mean no-one cares!

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hello, Istanbul~ a crazy Olympic fan city...(5 bids,right?)

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(ISTANBUL, April 3) -- The people of Istanbul, the largest city in Turkey and the second city on the Beijing Olympic Torch Relay route outside of the Chinese mainland, welcomed the Olympic flame on Thursday, April 3.

Traveling aboard the "Journey of Harmony" chartered Air China flight from Almaty, Kazakhstan, the flame landed just after midnight (GMT +3), and BOCOG Executive Vice-President Jiang Xiaoyu disembarked carrying the safety lantern that held the flame.

At Saint Sophia Square on Thursday afternoon, Jiang is to hand a kindled torch to Turkish Olympic Committee President Togay Bayatli, and Bayatli will in turn hand the torch off to figure skater Tugba Karademir, the first torchbearer, to start the relay at 2:00 p.m. (GMT +3).

Jiao Xiaoyu, Executive Vice President of Beijing Organizing Committee of Olympic Games (BOCOG) handed the safety lantern to vice governor of Istanbul province Ergun Gungor.

The torchbearers will pass through many notable sights along the relay route, including the Bosphorus Bridge that connects Europe and Asia, in the city that spans two continents.

The last torchbearer will reach the end of the relay route at around 6:40 p.m. (GMT +3).

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No one cares? Really? Have you had your head in the sand or have you just been watching too much Chinese State News?

People care more (and more people care) about the sacred values of human rights than they do about the so-called sacred values of the torch relay and all it suposedly represents. Just because you don't like something it doesn't automatically mean no-one cares!

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LOL~ If you do know Chinese government does control the source of news, how would you expect most of them speak the 'same voice' as you do? By the way, I'll rather think Chinese themselves knowing much more better about their government than you do. So even though some of their ''heads are in the sand'', does that mean you'll have the proper strength to pull out all of them overnight by stealing a 'OLYMPIC TORCH'? So no one mentions Darfur then? Coz that's so yesterday, Ahh?

So you think the people who doesn't embrace the stupid interruption of torch relay would never have the same right to share the value of human rights then. I thought one of the basic element of all this is 'EQUALITY'. And based on your logic, why would IOC has to accept Black Africa and Muslim World from the very beginning as they still seem like 'uncivilised barbarian land' in the 21st century.

To simplify your idea, a fire extinguisher would super-effectively twist the Chinese human rights or sth. Don't make a World,plz~

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Hey guy, please...

Torch Relay is the Torch Relay...

Torch Relay is not Enmity Relay,right?

What a weak response. Always when sometimes criticises you, you change the subject.

When you make controversial postings (like the one that nobody cares about the French attitude towards the torch relay), you have to accept that someone replies to such postings in a critical manner. That's what we call free speech. If you can't accept that, such a forum is probably not the right place for you.

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Having a debate is far better than to maginify the differences between each other, but........that's not thing used to any people.

Just understand him.

But he isn't new to this forum, so he should actually know that we have an open style of discussion here. By making such controversial statements, he even already practises free speech. Especially then, he has to accept that we make use of our right of free speech as well and criticise his opinion.

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But he isn't new to this forum, so he should actually know that we have an open style of discussion here. By making such controversial statements, he even already practises free speech. Especially then, he has to accept that we make use of our right of free speech as well and criticise his opinion.

You talking like his your little puppy......I beg most of the people in this forum really get rid of kind of empty pride by illustrating themselves as the ''avatar of justince''. He is a Chinese, everybody has his basic instinct to defence himself at this stage at the level of nationalism. This is not right or wrong except someone taking patriotism in exchange of racism. Don't you think so?

How even the topic he is talking about still remain some rooms to discuss further~Everybody could express their own opinions respectfully is already quite enough. Free Speech is not about to influence the people what to talk, but enable them have the motivation to speak out.

And if we really urgely need some truth out, why would we only criticise someone but not to share with someone?

Don't tell me this forum is only for the European community......(many Germans here in fact)

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You talking like his your little puppy......I beg most of the people in this forum really get rid of kind of empty pride by illustrating themselves as the ''avatar of justince''. He is a Chinese, everybody has his basic instinct to defence himself at this stage at the level of nationalism. This is not right or wrong except someone taking patriotism in exchange of racism. Don't you think so?

What??? Just because I deem it unfair that he states critical opinions himself but doesn't accept critical replies to his opinions, I'm a nationalist and racist? Are you for real?

You shouldn't make the mistake and sniff "anti-Chinese conspiracy" behind every corner. I simply criticised that whenever Xu has to face critical responses, he changes the subject.

How even the topic he is talking about still remain some rooms to discuss further~Everybody could express their own opinions respectfully is already quite enough. Free Speech is not about to influence the people what to talk, but enable them have the motivation to speak out.

I never told Xu what he has to talk about. Everyone has the right to state also critical opinions. So once more: I only deemed it unfair that he criticises others but doesn't accept critical responses himself. And that's not an issue of being Chinese or a Westerner: It's an issue of good debate culture.

And if we really urgely need some truth out, why would we only criticise someone but not to share with someone?

Don't tell me this forum is only for the European community......(many Germans here in fact)

Where did I say that non-European members in general shouldn't be in this forum? You're obviously very full of prejudices yourself if you read such things into other people's comments.

But if members (regardless of whether they are from China, Germany, Niger, Palau or whereever) practise free speech but don't accept when other members practise free speech as well and thus criticise their opinions -- then such a forum is truly not the right place for them. Once again: Xu's nationality plays no role -- but it plays a role that he doesn't allow a real discussion and blocks critical responses.

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What??? Just because I deem it unfair that he states critical opinions himself but doesn't accept critical replies to his opinions, I'm a nationalist and racist? Are you for real?

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There is a misreading here. Ok, the fact is both of you two not only own the rights to criticise each other, but also have the rights to have the free choices of justifying other's replies. You have to realise that this principle applies to all of us. Did you find his response provoked you thinking yourself as nationalist or racist? If you don't, there is no problem with him either. Nobody says you are a nationalist and racist at this point, but just having different political natures. Maybe he doesn't fully understand your statements, but that doesn't prove he has to accept you in order to follow some kind of ''game plan''. Even though he becomes your ''enemy'', but the entire process is still fair. OK, This whole thing has already gone off-topic on this post as a meaningless 'fight' without winner.

You shouldn't make the mistake and sniff "anti-Chinese conspiracy" behind every corner. I simply criticised that whenever Xu has to face critical responses, he changes the subject.

I never told Xu what he has to talk about. Everyone has the right to state also critical opinions. So once more: I only deemed it unfair that he criticises others but doesn't accept critical responses himself. And that's not an issue of being Chinese or a Westerner: It's an issue of good debate culture.

Where did I say that non-European members in general shouldn't be in this forum? You're obviously very full of prejudices yourself if you read such things into other people's comments.

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Well, I am not dare to say Xu has a rich hisotry ''aginest a good debate culture'', no comments from me without proper evidence. And I didn't metion about the racist differences, but naturally the people do realise their identities at this stage. So as you say this is a multicultural forum. What leads to good debate culture I thought would have to be at least to open to different cultural manners. Believe me, this is not about finding an excuse, but the neccessary step to communicate further. Because we're all people, nobody likes to take the blame without truthful reasons. So why would you waste your time on that?

But if members (regardless of whether they are from China, Germany, Niger, Palau or whereever) practise free speech but don't accept when other members practise free speech as well and thus criticise their opinions -- then such a forum is truly not the right place for them. Once again: Xu's nationality plays no role -- but it plays a role that he doesn't allow a real discussion and blocks critical responses.

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Well...This is very complicated. As I said, free speech describes only a particular way of communication, but not the resolution to produce the result of debate. Have you ever heard about the Game theory? The action of accepting other's opinions has countless of possibilities and entries. How would you know he never accepted other's opinions except you, or he did but not on this topic, or been selecting all differernt kinds of opinions but not from one particular viewpoint.......? So in your opinion, he'll have to wait for your definition at last in order to match ''Right Place Theory''? I only see he chose not to comprimise your idea about the French attitude on torch relay, then you judging him as an alien as a person without a explaination based on the topic. That didn't persuade him or me either. Sorry.

Well..... He never have been allowed to blah blah as you never have been allowed to either. And I was making a joke on the last sentence based on my rough observation, I was not saying I was telling the truth. So you can express whatever you want about that until you take on my idea properly. Sorry, even I have been awarded as ''VERY FULL OF PREJUDICE'', I still looks into the fact, not the personal influence.

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200804031034186f171.jpg

LOL~ If you do know Chinese government does control the source of news, how would you expect most of them speak the 'same voice' as you do? By the way, I'll rather think Chinese themselves knowing much more better about their government than you do. So even though some of their ''heads are in the sand'', does that mean you'll have the proper strength to pull out all of them overnight by stealing a 'OLYMPIC TORCH'? So no one mentions Darfur then? Coz that's so yesterday, Ahh?

So you think the people who doesn't embrace the stupid interruption of torch relay would never have the same right to share the value of human rights then. I thought one of the basic element of all this is 'EQUALITY'. And based on your logic, why would IOC has to accept Black Africa and Muslim World from the very beginning as they still seem like 'uncivilised barbarian land' in the 21st century.

To simplify your idea, a fire extinguisher would super-effectively twist the Chinese human rights or sth. Don't make a World,plz~

Maryjane, I was merely correcting our friend when he said no one cared about protests in Paris; a statement which is simply not true. Whether he genuinly thought it to be true or whether, by posting it he thought it'd seem more true to him I don't know, and frankly don't care. I was just correcting an incorrect fact. Nothing more, nothing less.

How you managed to read my post and come out with things about black africa, extinguishing the torch solving the China's problems, Darfur, equality, who is and who isn't deserving of human rights etc. I have no idea! I must, however, congratulate you on your uncanny ability to put words into other people's mouths!

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Maryjane, I was merely correcting our friend when he said no one cared about protests in Paris; a statement which is simply not true. Whether he genuinly thought it to be true or whether, by posting it he thought it'd seem more true to him I don't know, and frankly don't care. I was just correcting an incorrect fact. Nothing more, nothing less.

How you managed to read my post and come out with things about black africa, extinguishing the torch solving the China's problems, Darfur, equality, who is and who isn't deserving of human rights etc. I have no idea! I must, however, congratulate you on your uncanny ability to put words into other people's mouths!

Oh~Rob, he was mourning to himself, and actually it's me who lead that statement first. So don't blame him, I beg you see the previous posts clearly then to do the ''correctness''...

And the following is the comment I made towards to your point of view, I didn't mark them as you said those words. So no one to blame at this point. That's your misunderstanding whatsoever. Sorry, it's you repeated them again from your month. Did I do that to you?

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Well...This is very complicated. As I said, free speech describes only a particular way of communication, but not the resolution to produce the result of debate. Have you ever heard about the Game theory? The action of accepting other's opinions has countless of possibilities and entries. How would you know he never accepted other's opinions except you, or he did but not on this topic, or been selecting all differernt kinds of opinions but not from one particular viewpoint.......? So in your opinion, he'll have to wait for your definition at last in order to match ''Right Place Theory''? I only see he chose not to comprimise your idea about the French attitude on torch relay, then you judging him as an alien as a person without a explaination based on the topic. That didn't persuade him or me either. Sorry.

Well..... He never have been allowed to blah blah as you never have been allowed to either. And I was making a joke on the last sentence based on my rough observation, I was not saying I was telling the truth. So you can express whatever you want about that until you take on my idea properly. Sorry, even I have been awarded as ''VERY FULL OF PREJUDICE'', I still looks into the fact, not the personal influence.

Frankly, I hardly understand what you are trying to tell me. You write such complicated comments that actually, it's no surprise that they can be easily misunderstood. But we should leave it there -- I'm not interested in having lengthy philosophical discussions about an actually pretty simple problem.

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Sigh. I suppose this will inflame the debates again, but interesting study giving tie to the notion that nobody cares _ the results of a survey of athletes on the French team:

PARIS, April 3, 2008 (AFP) - Just under half of French athletes set to compete at the Olympics would support a presidential boycott of the Games' opening ceremony as a sign of protest against China, according to a poll.

French President Nicolas Sarkozy recently hinted that he could boycott the opening ceremony of the August 8-24 Games to protest China's violent reaction to recent demonstrations in Tibet.

According to a poll to be published in the free magazine 'Sport' on Friday, 43 percent of athletes - including many big names - would back their president.

Just over 30 percent (31.5) would oppose such a boycott, while 25.5 percent had no comment to make.

The poll was taken from a total of 126 athletes who have qualified, or are in the process of qualifying, for the Games.

An overriding majority (96 percent) said they would be against a boycott of the Olympics, but further opinions have reinforced reports which suggest some athletes could be involved in some kind of protest at the Games.

Eighty-six percent polled said they would publicly show their support for the causes of Tibet, and the recognition of human rights.

Former pole vaulter Romain Mesnil is set to unveil a protest badge on Friday. Seventy-three percent polled would prefer to display such a badge, while 40 percent said they would be prepared to wear a T-shirt on which the symbolic Olympic rings have been transformed into handcuffs.

Over 30 percent polled said they could go as far as having the Tibetan flag drawn onto their T-shirt.

Just under half (49 percent) of the 126 athletes polled, including eight Olympic and 17 world champions, said they may boycott the opening ceremony and 47 percent said they could speak out publicly during the Games on the issue of human rights.

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... the head of the "sport council" of the German parliament was asked in an interview:

Have the athletes keep quiet at the Olympic Games in Bejing?

I am glad, that the DOSB (the German NOC) had approved the right of free speech. How could it be different, as that the DOSB consider human rights? We (the sport council) will look very carefully, if athletes will be punished, who used their right of free expression of opinion in Bejing. I'm surprised about the reservation in the public statements of Thomas Bach and Walther Tröger (important officials of the DOSB) in this context. It will aggrieved me, if I had to interpret this reservation, that German athletes in Beijing have less rights than the Germans in Germany - altough the athletes are the representatives of Germany at the Games. I hope, that the athletes have the courage, to express their opinion in Bejing. A threath, how Walter Tröger expressed, is not helpful.

Did athletes contact you?

Two asked, if we back them, when they use their human rights in Beijing. I assured it. I believe, that the IOC-rule, which restrict the free expression of opinion, have to be taken how we have to take human rights generally at the moment: there won't be any sanction by not consideration. The central question is: Does the Sport, the IOC and the DOSB accept free speech as human rights? I can't wait, how the chinese organisators will react toward the visitors in the audience in the sport venues. There are free expression of opinion possible, too.

Does it mean, that the public aid for the participation in Vancouver 2010 and London 2012 is in danger, if the IOC cave in in Bejing about important questions toward human rights?

I don't want to speculate. I hope, that the situation doesn't grow acute. You shouldn't forget: The IOC is a role model. The less it doesn't take this in account for its decision the more problematic it will become. Of course you can't expect the same democratic standards everywhere in the world. But the Games is menaced by a shadow. The IOC is only able to counter that, when it demands minimum standards and adhere to these standards. It is an antagonism, to say that the Olympic Games were awarded to Bejing to improve the situation of human rights and to stand there with bonded hands now.

That will become very very interesting - in the next months...

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Well, it's interesting, and confusing, to once again see the IOC attitude:

BEIJING, April 3 AFP - Athletes will be free to speak out at the Beijing Games on whatever subject they please as long as they respect Olympic rules, an International Olympic Committee official said today.

Hein Verbruggen, head of the IOC commission that is helping to prepare for the August 8-24 Games, said China's communist rulers had made no attempt to silence any of the 10,500 athletes expected to compete here.

``The Chinese have never asked us to muzzle any athlete at all,'' he told a press conference here. ``It has never been under discussion.''

``But every athlete has to respect the Olympic Charter. That has been there for many, many years. But for the rest they are free to speak out and say whatever they want.''

Under the charter, a set of rules drawn up by the IOC governing the operation of the Games, athletes are barred from using venues to promote racial, political, religious ideas or other propaganda.

There are no specific restrictions on behaviour outside the official venues.

``The venues are places for sporting competitions, not for grandstanding or making political gestures,'' said Verbruggen, in Beijing for talks with the Games organisers ahead of a full meeting of the IOC board here next week.

``Outside the venues they have freedom to say whatever they want to say.''

Once again, they seem to be trying to have it both ways and hedging their bets _ on the one hand saying athletes will have freedom of expression, and then saying they must follow IOC rules.

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Well, it's interesting, and confusing, to once again see the IOC attitude:

Once again, they seem to be trying to have it both ways and hedging their bets _ on the one hand saying athletes will have freedom of expression, and then saying they must follow IOC rules.

I have just read an article about this press conference in Bejing and I am really ANNOYED about the IOC - Verbruggen tried to explain to the journalists taht the IOC has to keep out of politics and in the same press conference his chinese counterpart Wang Wei defended the verdict about the civil rights activist Hu Jia - that is a scandal: it is outrageous that a chinese official is allowed to defend a vedict against a civil right activist in a press conference, in which a IOC official is sitting beside and stays quiet - I think the IOC should be very careful with the public opinion and think about to withdraw China the Games, if the chinese government doesn't change its policy immediately

Edited by Citius Altius Fortius
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Uighur Protest in Turkey Against China

By C. ONUR ANT – 8 hours ago

ISTANBUL, Turkey (AP) — Police detained at least six Uighur Muslims on Thursday at an anti-China protest during the Olympic torch ceremony near one of Turkey's most famous tourist destinations.

The demonstrators were detained after they broke away from a larger group of protesters and shouted slogans just feet away from Tugba Karademir, a Turkish figure skater and Olympic athlete who had just started to run with the torch through the city.

About 200 Uighur Muslims had converged ahead of the ceremony near Istanbul's Blue Mosque and the domed Haghia Sofia church.

The Olympic flame is on a global tour before the summer games in Beijing. Activists have called for protests following unrest in Tibet. There also have been reports of unrest by the Uighur minority in China's Xinjiang region. Uighurs are related to Turks, and Turkey is home to an Uighur community.

"Turkey, stand by your brothers," read a banner at the protest in Istanbul.

"We don't want a country like China, with a bad human rights record, to hold the Olympics, which symbolize humanity, peace and brotherhood," protester Hayrullah Efendigil said.

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It's gonna be interesting to see what will happen in the relay in Paris and London over the next few days.

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