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It's such a pity the torch relay became a showcase of intolerance and violence...

I strongly support anyone who wishes to protest, but you can't ask for peace and justice if you're being disrespectful and agressive with someone else. It's a paradox. A ridiculous one.

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I don't know why anyone should be surprised by these events. It is pretty obvious that the Chinese government intended to use the games a platform to show the economic development of China, however they failed to see that hosting this kind of events is a two way street. You can't simply expect the rest of the world, dissidents included, to go along without an input. Besides, politics have always been present in the games.

In any case, today I came back home from university to find out that "Students for a Free Tibet" had climbed the Golden Gate Bridge and unfurled two big banners. It's beyond me why the Chinese picked San Francisco as one of the stops for the torch relay. SF might be 1/3 Chinese, but many people in the Chinese community are linked to groups opposed to the policies of the People's Republic of China. That might be the reason why the Chinese consulate is actually far away from Chinatown, which happens to be the home of the Taiwanese consulate. Also, they overlooked or ignored the fact that San Francisco is the equivalent of "Demonstration-town, USA." You can bet people will be protesting the torch relay, which explains why the route is sticking to the Embarcadero (waterfront) as opposed of hitting the streets.

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In any case, today I came back home from university to find out that "Students for a Free Tibet" had climbed the Golden Gate Bridge and unfurled two big banners. It's beyond me why the Chinese picked San Francisco as one of the stops for the torch relay. SF might be 1/3 Chinese, but many people in the Chinese community are linked to groups opposed to the policies of the People's Republic of China. That might be the reason why the Chinese consulate is actually far away from Chinatown, which happens to be the home of the Taiwanese consulate. Also, they overlooked or ignored the fact that San Francisco is the equivalent of "Demonstration-town, USA." You can bet people will be protesting the torch relay, which explains why the route is sticking to the Embarcadero (waterfront) as opposed of hitting the streets.

Yeah, SF is demo-town, USA, because it's home to the most drama queens. But the demos would happen anywhere the Torch would've landed in the US. They just picked the lightning rod town.

Indeed, SF was recommended by the USOC because of its large Chinese population, its large # of Olympic athletes, its where I reside :) , its scenic beauty, and maybe precisely because it's a "speak your mind town." I mean your own city, Beserkeley, is right across the Bay. Chicago was avoided as you can see, this year's itinerary steers clear of the leading 2016 candidate cities of Chicago, Doha, Madrid, Tokyo and Rio.

The reason the PRC consulate is on Geary is because that is where they could find a large enough all-in-one compound and away from the overcrowded density of SF Chinatown. BTW, Taiwan does not HAVE a consulate in SF. If anything, I believe it's called a 'trade office.'

I went to the City this morning to see my orthodontist. And my God, was it a beautiful day!! So this is why I always wanted to live here/there, and why they picked San Francisco as the only North American stop. And thinking ahead to tomorrow, I couldn't help but be wondering, gosh - darnit!!, where's Nancy Kwan when you need her? For the younger ones here, Nancy Kwan starred in the film version of Rodgers & Hammerstein's FLOWER DRUM SONG, and she has one particular song from that score that is one of the un-official sub-theme songs of San Francisco: it's called GRANT AVENUE, and its like a 'Welcome Y'all' to the bawdy City by the Bay. (Sorry, couldn't find the right Youtube clip to illustrate this musical number.)

Edited by baron-pierreIV
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It's such a pity the torch relay became a showcase of intolerance and violence...

I strongly support anyone who wishes to protest, but you can't ask for peace and justice if you're being disrespectful and agressive with someone else. It's a paradox. A ridiculous one.

Agree with you there.

Noone will detest a peaceful protest.

But the image of a protester coming up and grapling an Olympic torch out of someones hand.... that's just a line that is crossed, and it doesnt sit comfortably with me when it comes to means of protest.

It's not on.

Im not saying that the plight of a people pale in comparison to our beloved Olympic torch - but when it becomes a physical issue involving innocent peoples, there is something wrong with tactics.

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I guess I missed it, but all reports I heard said the mayor stopped the race.

Who exactly said we are pulling the plug? Reference please.

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I think, all of us should be shame...

As your sayings that so called "Human Rights", "Tibetan", or other things in China.

But London is the host city of 2012 SOG, and Paris is candidate city of 2008 and 2012... Who really understand Olympic spirit?

What's Olympic really is? These people really cant understand.

"So called" human rights? <_<:blink:

Many of these people (and, I repeat, the huge majority of protesters were peaceful and I was proud to see them) understand exactly what China is using this relay for and are perfectly entitled to protest against that.

May I ask you a quesiton Xu Wen-Ting? If the small number of violent protesters were not there, and there were only large, peaceful protests as the torch passed, would you have approved? What is your reaction to the peaceful protesters who, amongst the furore, seem to have been ignored?

Edited by Rob ♪
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Debated where to put this.

This is the people scaling the golden gate bridge.(if i need to down size it message me.

080407-gate-tibet-vmed-12p.widec.jpg

One says One World, One Dream, Free Tibet 2008.

The other just free Tibet.

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"So called" human rights? <_<:blink:

Many of these people (and, I repeat, the huge majority of protesters were peaceful and I was proud to see them) understand exactly what China is using this relay for and are perfectly entitled to protest against that.

May I ask you a quesiton Xu Wen-Ting? If the small number of violent protesters were not there, and there were only large, peaceful protests as the torch passed, would you have approved? What is your reaction to the peaceful protesters who, amongst the furore, seem to have been ignored?

Well, if there were only large, peaceful protests as the torch passed...i think it would be a more accessible thing, because you never make everything clear, and everyone has his or her right to explain what he or she really want to. In China there's also some different ways for people to explain, even though not every attempt will get a perfect response. Just like the global ,large and peaceful protests against US and UK's Iraq War...

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Well, if there were only large, peaceful protests as the torch passed...i think it would be a more accessible thing, because you never make everything clear, and everyone has his or her right to explain what he or she really want to. In China there's also some different ways for people to explain, even though not every attempt will get a perfect response. Just like the global ,large and peaceful protests against US and UK's Iraq War...

Well, it's not very surprising that the Chinese regime permitted demonstrations against other states. But how about the chances of the Chinese people to protest against their own government -- or to just criticise it?

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Well, if there were only large, peaceful protests as the torch passed...i think it would be a more accessible thing, because you never make everything clear, and everyone has his or her right to explain what he or she really want to. In China there's also some different ways for people to explain, even though not every attempt will get a perfect response. Just like the global ,large and peaceful protests against US and UK's Iraq War...

I will try and re-ask the question.(Which was quite clear.)

If there were only people on one side with anti-Chinese government signs on one side of the road and pro-China sign on the other side of the road, each yelling. but no one touched to torch or its bearer would this be ok for you.

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I believe the best thing for the IOC to do is to cancel the international sections of the torch relay - the longer this goes on, and it shows no sign of stopping, the longer it embarrasses the IOC. It doesn't spread Olympic excitement very much seeing images of near-rioting in Paris and London or seeing the flame surrounded by Chinese bodyguards and local police.

Scrapping the relay would be a huge blow to China, and hugely embarrassing, but better to do that now than to carry on the international relay for another month with stories everyday of yet more protests.

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SF will start protesting today. There are plans for a freedom torch to be taken to the Chinese embassy.

Tibet has been a torn for many actors for years.

CNN is report that the relay will continue.

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I will try and re-ask the question.(Which was quite clear.)

If there were only people on one side with anti-Chinese government signs on one side of the road and pro-China sign on the other side of the road, each yelling. but no one touched to torch or its bearer would this be ok for you.

就知道问这种问题啊?

这是个什么论坛?谁能告诉我?这是一个反华论坛吗?

你们的素质也真够可以的了。作为一个中国人在这个论坛我只想给大家带来更多的有关奥运会的信息,别的我不想过多的回答。但是我得到的是什么?一些冷冷的嘲笑和一个又一个的无所谓。

我发誓,我以后不会在这里再留言了,因为我感觉压力很大。在这里我找不到一点,哪怕就那么一点,对中国老百姓的支持,你们可以理解一个奥运会主办国的人民真正在意的是什么吗?政治是肮脏的,别以为你们的国家就是所谓的什么民主国家,天下乌鸦一般黑。你们TMD吃饱了开始整别人了,被地里搞的那些猫腻你们TM以为全世界的人都傻子,是吧?

难道你们不会考虑一下这样的事情对中国人民构成了多大的伤害吗?放下你们所谓的虚伪的民主吧,再民主不也是那个奶奶样,你们侵略别人的国家让自己富有,你们所谓的富有和发达是建立在侵略和掠夺之上的。

万事都有因果轮回,总有一天,在此时叫嚣的你们会尝到报应的滋味的。请记住,这不是诅咒,这脚因果报应。

一个文明的民族不会成天抓住别人的失误不放,同样一个文明的民族要学会包容和人民之间的理解。

我很想看看英国伦敦奥运会会有什么“热闹”的场景出现。到时候在这里说话的你们就会理解我说的现在这种感受,但也只是一点点,因为你们还都说英语,都是西方侵略者的后代……你们永远也理解不了东方人的世界,永远!这就是隔膜的存在,没有人奢望有一天它会消失。对立也便这样产生了。

我更多的就不想说了,至于中文,有明白的就为我翻译一下,不明白的就算了。老子在这个论坛看了TMD四年多的英语,也该让你们好好认识一下中文了。

There's my true feeling about you...

Hope some people who know Chinese could translate it for my GB friends...Because of my poor english.

In fact,there's nothing serious if you dont know what ive said.

These words are for you.

Its not a curse, i only want you to know what's called comeuppance. Time will tell you.

GOOD BYE

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就知道问这种问题啊?

这是个什么论坛?谁能告诉我?这是一个反华论坛吗?

你们的素质也真够可以的了。作为一个中国人在这个论坛我只想给大家带来更多的有关奥运会的信息,别的我不想过多的回答。但是我得到的是什么?一些冷冷的嘲笑和一个又一个的无所谓。

我发誓,我以后不会在这里再留言了,因为我感觉压力很大。在这里我找不到一点,哪怕就那么一点,对中国老百姓的支持,你们可以理解一个奥运会主办国的人民真正在意的是什么吗?政治是肮脏的,别以为你们的国家就是所谓的什么民主国家,天下乌鸦一般黑。你们TMD吃饱了开始整别人了,被地里搞的那些猫腻你们TM以为全世界的人都傻子,是吧?

难道你们不会考虑一下这样的事情对中国人民构成了多大的伤害吗?放下你们所谓的虚伪的民主吧,再民主不也是那个奶奶样,你们侵略别人的国家让自己富有,你们所谓的富有和发达是建立在侵略和掠夺之上的。

万事都有因果轮回,总有一天,在此时叫嚣的你们会尝到报应的滋味的。请记住,这不是诅咒,这脚因果报应。

一个文明的民族不会成天抓住别人的失误不放,同样一个文明的民族要学会包容和人民之间的理解。

我很想看看英国伦敦奥运会会有什么“热闹”的场景出现。到时候在这里说话的你们就会理解我说的现在这种感受,但也只是一点点,因为你们还都说英语,都是西方侵略者的后代……你们永远也理解不了东方人的世界,永远!这就是隔膜的存在,没有人奢望有一天它会消失。对立也便这样产生了。

我更多的就不想说了,至于中文,有明白的就为我翻译一下,不明白的就算了。老子在这个论坛看了TMD四年多的英语,也该让你们好好认识一下中文了。

There's my true feeling about you...

Hope some people who know Chinese could translate it for my GB friends...Because of my poor english.

In fact,there's nothing serious if you dont know what ive said.

These words are for you.

Its not a curse, i only want you to know what's called comeuppance. Time will tell you.

GOOD BYE

Hi Dear, pls let me take the liberty to do a translation on your message, but pls correct me if anything does not come across what you meant.

"I knew that would be the sort of question you ask!! What kind of forum is it? Who can tell me? Is it an anti-Chinese forum?

What kind of quality are these people in the forum? As a Chinese in this forum, all I want is to share with all of you the most updated info on the Beijing Olympics, and at the same time I try to avoid discussin on other issues. But then how have I been treated in this forum!? Only a bunch of sarcasm and mocking time after time.

I swear, I would never leave message here in this forum again. The unnecesary pressure is just too much on me. Here, I have never seen a bit, a tiny bit of the support to the Chinese citizens. Can you imagine what it means to the Chinese people as the people of an Olympics organizer? Politics is dirty, but don't think it's much cleaner in your so called "democratic" countries... it's all the same everywhere. Now you guys in the West have your stomach all full, and then jump out and point at other people and stir up trouble in other people's countries, and think people other than yourselves are idiots.

Have you ever thought of how deep the damage these kind of stuff would make to the Chinese citizens? Take off your mask of hypocritical democracy. What's the big deal of being democratic...your countries invaded (or colonized) other people's countries to make yourself rich. The so-called "rich" and "developed" has been built on the invason and looting of other people's lands.

Everything and anything has karma/ comes in circle... someday, you all in the forum would experience this kind of feeling. But pls remember, this is not a curse, it's just a karma.

A civilized and developed race would not always pick on another's mistake and keep drilling on it. On the same note, a civilized and developed race would know how to be forgiving and accept each other.

I look forward to the "hot" scenes when it comes to the London Olympics relay. By then people in this forum would understand my feeling right now, but only a bit, cause you all speak English, and you are the grandsons of the Western imperialists who invaded other people's land. You would never understand the world in the East, ever. This is where prejudice and dissolation come from, and no one would expect it to go away any time, and this where confrontation starts

I don't want to speak any more...as for this Chinese posting, help me translate if you do understand, and who cares if you do not.... I have been reading English in this forum in the last 4 years...it's about time someone needs to learn Chinese. "

End translation.

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San Francisco is looking at doing another modification to the torch relay tomorrow:

Clicky Here

Those poor protestors - after all the hours they spent making their protest banners, would be devastated if all the sudden the route turned off the Marina and headed down Van Ness instead of heading to Fishermans Wharf :lol:

"Damn dude, what am I going to do with this banner now?"

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First of all: Many thanks to mpkwokgsb for the translation.

And now, Xu, about your posting:

I knew that would be the sort of question you ask!! What kind of forum is it? Who can tell me? Is it an anti-Chinese forum?

What kind of quality are these people in the forum? As a Chinese in this forum, all I want is to share with all of you the most updated info on the Beijing Olympics, and at the same time I try to avoid discussin on other issues. But then how have I been treated in this forum!? Only a bunch of sarcasm and mocking time after time.

Well, OK -- you actually don't want to discuss politics. Normally everyone here would respect that.

But then I absolutely why you still engage in those political discussions. Just like with the insults you used towards us Westerners (see below).

I swear, I would never leave message here in this forum again. The unnecesary pressure is just too much on me. Here, I have never seen a bit, a tiny bit of the support to the Chinese citizens. Can you imagine what it means to the Chinese people as the people of an Olympics organizer? Politics is dirty, but don't think it's much cleaner in your so called "democratic" countries... it's all the same everywhere. Now you guys in the West have your stomach all full, and then jump out and point at other people and stir up trouble in other people's countries, and think people other than yourselves are idiots.

Who has said that the Chinese people are idiots? We simply criticise your government for its human rights policy.

And to speak at least for myself: I can distinguish very well between the people who govern a country and the citizens who are governed by them (and, as in China's case, didn't even have the opportunity to freely elect their government).

The bad thing about this whole discussion is that some people sniff prejudices where there are none -- and react to that by using prejudices themselves.

Have you ever thought of how deep the damage these kind of stuff would make to the Chinese citizens? Take off your mask of hypocritical democracy. What's the big deal of being democratic...your countries invaded (or colonized) other people's countries to make yourself rich. The so-called "rich" and "developed" has been built on the invason and looting of other people's lands.

And no one said that democratic countries are perfect. But at least they are pretty much perfect in one sense: In giving their citizens the freedom to choose their government, to practise their religion, and to state also critical opinions towards the government without facing any repressions. In China, that's different. And that's why we only claim that the Chinese people -- like you -- get access to the same freedoms we Westerners are able to enjoy. Didn't you ever ask yourself, "Why can't I choose my government freely? Why aren't I allowed to take a critical attitude towards my government? Why does my government sometimes block the access to Wikipedia or other free information sources?"

A civilized and developed race would not always pick on another's mistake and keep drilling on it. On the same note, a civilized and developed race would know how to be forgiving and accept each other.

Very well said -- but does the Chinese government forgive and accept others as well? Does it show it's "civilized and developed" character by denying its people full human rights? Does it show tolerance by calling the Dalai Lama a "terrorist" and refusing talks with him about the future of Tibet?

That's the point: We in this forum accept different opinions (which doesn't mean that we won't respond critically to them whenever it's needed). But we don't tolerate and forgive intolerance -- such as the intolerance practised by the Chinese government. And that's what the "China/Tibet/torch relay" discussion is all about.

I look forward to the "hot" scenes when it comes to the London Olympics relay. By then people in this forum would understand my feeling right now, but only a bit, cause you all speak English, and you are the grandsons of the Western imperialists who invaded other people's land. You would never understand the world in the East, ever. This is where prejudice and dissolation come from, and no one would expect it to go away any time, and this where confrontation starts

"Grandsons of the Western imperialists" is clearly one of those insults and prejudices you actually requested us not to use. And you also talked about "hypocrisy": Isn't it hypocritical as well to ask others to refrain from a certain kind of behaviour and then to show this behaviour oneself?

I don't want to speak any more...as for this Chinese posting, help me translate if you do understand, and who cares if you do not.... I have been reading English in this forum in the last 4 years...it's about time someone needs to learn Chinese. "

Well, you already knew that this is an English-speaking forum when you opened your account here four years ago. So I don't understand why that's suddenly a problem for you. I also don't ask other members to learn German because that's my native language.

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I have to correct the following sentence:

But then I absolutely why you still engage in those political discussions. Just like with the insults you used towards us Westerners (see below).

Actually it should read:

"But then I absolutely don't understand why you still engage in those political discussions. Just like with the insults you used towards us Westerners (see below)."

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Well, if there were only large, peaceful protests as the torch passed...i think it would be a more accessible thing, because you never make everything clear, and everyone has his or her right to explain what he or she really want to. In China there's also some different ways for people to explain, even though not every attempt will get a perfect response. Just like the global ,large and peaceful protests against US and UK's Iraq War...

Xu, you don't have to explain those stuff towards them. If they couldn't share sth with you, don't have to force them. But trust me, believe what you believe is the truth. Don't have to go to extreme, but be more clever about that.

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Xu, you don't have to explain those stuff towards them. If they couldn't share sth with you, don't have to force them. But trust me, believe what you believe is the truth. Don't have to go to extreme, but be more clever about that.

Ignoring legitimate questions is certainly no solution.

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Pakistani President Pervez Musharraf said on Tuesday that he would attend the Olympic torch relay ceremony to be held in Islamabad on April 16

The president said that Pakistan is making all efforts to guarantee the security of the torch relay ceremony and make sure that "nothing will happen".

Musharraf also refuted the boycotting of the Beijing Olympic Games, saying that the Games will be historic.

It would be unfortunate "if anyone is trying to boycott the Games, create misunderstanding, or do anything which undermines the Games", he added.

Musharraf said Pakistan would stand firm with China and contribute to removing any attempt to disrupt the Olympic Games.

Special report: 2008 Olympic Games

beijingpakistanog6.jpg

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"I knew that would be the sort of question you ask!! What kind of forum is it? Who can tell me? Is it an anti-Chinese forum?

What kind of quality are these people in the forum? As a Chinese in this forum, all I want is to share with all of you the most updated info on the Beijing Olympics, and at the same time I try to avoid discussin on other issues. But then how have I been treated in this forum!? Only a bunch of sarcasm and mocking time after time.

I swear, I would never leave message here in this forum again. The unnecesary pressure is just too much on me. Here, I have never seen a bit, a tiny bit of the support to the Chinese citizens. Can you imagine what it means to the Chinese people as the people of an Olympics organizer? Politics is dirty, but don't think it's much cleaner in your so called "democratic" countries... it's all the same everywhere. Now you guys in the West have your stomach all full, and then jump out and point at other people and stir up trouble in other people's countries, and think people other than yourselves are idiots.

Have you ever thought of how deep the damage these kind of stuff would make to the Chinese citizens? Take off your mask of hypocritical democracy. What's the big deal of being democratic...your countries invaded (or colonized) other people's countries to make yourself rich. The so-called "rich" and "developed" has been built on the invason and looting of other people's lands.

Everything and anything has karma/ comes in circle... someday, you all in the forum would experience this kind of feeling. But pls remember, this is not a curse, it's just a karma.

A civilized and developed race would not always pick on another's mistake and keep drilling on it. On the same note, a civilized and developed race would know how to be forgiving and accept each other.

I look forward to the "hot" scenes when it comes to the London Olympics relay. By then people in this forum would understand my feeling right now, but only a bit, cause you all speak English, and you are the grandsons of the Western imperialists who invaded other people's land. You would never understand the world in the East, ever. This is where prejudice and dissolation come from, and no one would expect it to go away any time, and this where confrontation starts

I don't want to speak any more...as for this Chinese posting, help me translate if you do understand, and who cares if you do not.... I have been reading English in this forum in the last 4 years...it's about time someone needs to learn Chinese. "

End translation.

Unbelievable. A tremendously hand-wringing 'poor us, poor us' performance if ever I've seen one. The naivety is quite breathtaking. I mean, what exactly does he expect? The biggest sporting event on the face of this planet is happening in his country, a country whose reputation preceeds it, a country which should have expected the spotlight of the world to be upon it. And what does it do? Recoil in horror at any sign of dissent. History on either side is not relevant. The present and the future are what matter and until the Chinese authorities are sufficiently pressured into change, then the protest and discussion will go on.

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ISLAMABAD - Pakistan will provide the same security it gives to the country’s head of state to the Olympics torch relay when it passes through the capital Islamabad this month, the government said Tuesday.

The flame passes through Islamabad on April 16.

“All security arrangements for the torch relay participants will be that of the head of the state,” a government statement said quoting sports minister Khwaja Muhammad Asif. “He asked the Pakistan Olympic Association (POA) to ensure all out arrangements for the torch relay"

beijingpakistanog6.jpg

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Ohhhh - the protestors are all up in arms today! Apparently the last minute changing of the route is becoming a big deal as the Mayor apparently said he wants to avoid another situation as had occurred in Paris to happen here. :lol:

Meantime I received an e-mail from the ferry I take to work every day informing us to expect delays tomorrow as the ceremony is happening across from the ferry building. I think I'll buy a canister of pepper spray today to take with me in the event the protestors try and keep us from getting to the ferry building. I have dinner plans tomorrow night and will be on a tite schedule! :angry:

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