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I've just seen a BBC video of the torch relay in London and I'm deeply disappointed. I believe everyone has the right to protest and all, but when things become violent as they were today, the protest become meaningless and stupid.

A huge majority of the protests were not violent and I was proud to see and hear them on our streets. A few individuals decided to go too far and have been arrested; they were outnumbered by the peaceful protesters who in turn were outnumbered by Olympic supporters (who unfortunately seemed a lot less vocal).

We could barely see the torchbeares among all that security staff, and the protests were much more agressive than they should be. I bet the bearers were afraid someone would attack and hurt them all the moment (and it happened). It looked like a deadly artifact was running on the streets or some war was going on...

The protests, by and large were not agressive, but a few individuals went over the top. The police did what they had to and you're right, it looked bloody awful and I'd imagine from the street the flame was bareful visible. But that's just the way things had to be this time round. If you can think of a better way for it to have been done I'd love to hear it!

I'm definitely not a chinese regime supporter, but The Flame is a symbol of peace an friendship and I think it's en route to the place where it's values are more than necessary.

The values of the torch aren't immutable. The values we see in this torch relay aren't necessarily the same as what the Chinese Regime sees. Though it could be a force for good, it could also be twisted to fit other political means. But in general I agree with your last sentence so won't argue too much!

NEXT STOP: PARIS. We'll see what happens shall we? Though it looks like the route is just over half the length of London's.

Edited by Rob ♪
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sorry to ask this question so late in the game.

the flame started at the temple of Hera. Do they change which temple they hold it at? Was there a reason it was held this year at Hera?

On the relay, I did not really pay attention in other years, but did it only do like a day around a major city and then flown to another country. It seems kinda boring.

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The values we see in this torch relay aren't necessarily the same as what the Chinese Regime sees.

Exactly!

It is very interesting that the Chinese Regime wants to see the incidents in London as sabotage of Tibetan separatists - I wonder if the majority of the protesters in London were British?

Edited by Citius Altius Fortius
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Amanis: They have used the Temple of Hera since 1936 when the Germans did the first Torch Relay (according to the BBC). And according to Wikipedia Athens 2004 was the first time the torch went around the world.

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Exactly!

It is very interesting that the Chinese Regime wants to see the incidents in London as sabotage of Tibetan separatists - I wonder if the majority of the protesters in London were British?

Yes, we westerners are controlled by the Dalai Lama.

Any news on Paris?

Where is the best place to watch online?

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A huge majority of the protests were not violent and I was proud to see and hear them on our streets. A few individuals decided to go too far and have been arrested; they were outnumbered by the peaceful protesters who in turn were outnumbered by Olympic supporters (who unfortunately seemed a lot less vocal).

The protests, by and large were not agressive, but a few individuals went over the top. The police did what they had to and you're right, it looked bloody awful and I'd imagine from the street the flame was bareful visible. But that's just the way things had to be this time round. If you can think of a better way for it to have been done I'd love to hear it!

The values of the torch aren't immutable. The values we see in this torch relay aren't necessarily the same as what the Chinese Regime sees. Though it could be a force for good, it could also be twisted to fit other political means. But in general I agree with your last sentence so won't argue too much!

NEXT STOP: PARIS. We'll see what happens shall we? Though it looks like the route is just over half the length of London's.

Don't make me a laugh. Try and asking those FREE TIBET ''British volunteers'', they couldn't even point out where Tibet exactly is. 50 ponds per hour by waving those little ''flags''probably did really make a ''Majority'' like statement And check out the BBC coverage, just on 12:35 BBC 24, a western guy saying '' It's the Britain who invades Turkey, Cyprus...'' then suddenly been cut off by them.

And look at one of the Tv presenters pointing out the pro-China protests near white hall as ''ugly confrontation'', I have never been enjoying such '' Transparency and democratic message'' from my whole life. lol. Don't making your NATIONAL Television as the voice of the world as pointing out others are propagandas. I beg next time London may be looking much ''better'' blah blah thanks for the British Inland television.

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Yes, we westerners are controlled by the Dalai Lama.

Any news on Paris?

Where is the best place to watch online?

I just found the route that is going to be taken in Pairs it all starts at 10:35 GMT (so in about 40 minutes or so)

So i'm sure we'll be seeing something soon.

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I just found the route that is going to be taken in Pairs it all starts at 10:35 GMT (so in about 40 minutes or so)

So i'm sure we'll be seeing something soon.

sorry i think i might be off by an hour sooo its either 40 min or 1 hour and 40 min

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Yes, we westerners are controlled by the Dalai Lama.

Any news on Paris?

Where is the best place to watch online?

Da Du ja aus Deutschland kommst, gehe ich mal davon aus, dass Du Deutsch verstehst:

Fühlst Du Dich denn, als Deutscher/als Deutsche, vom Dalai Lama gelenkt?

Edited by Citius Altius Fortius
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After the olympics, they'll have nothing to say. lol. polititians are polititians

Of Corse!! He's just looking for some points because its easy and popular to be against what the Chinese are doing in Tibet. Now I don't know the guy but if he has spent years working on the cause then i will apologize.

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This is more or less a hooliganism than civility which we know the west is used to.

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Don't make me a laugh. Try and asking those FREE TIBET ''British volunteers'', they couldn't even point out where Tibet exactly is. 50 ponds per hour by waving those little ''flags''probably did really make a ''Majority'' like statement And check out the BBC coverage, just on 12:35 BBC 24, a western guy saying '' It's the Britain who invades Turkey, Cyprus...'' then suddenly been cut off by them.

And look at one of the Tv presenters pointing out the pro-China protests near white hall as ''ugly confrontation'', I have never been enjoying such '' Transparency and democratic message'' from my whole life. lol. Don't making your NATIONAL Television as the voice of the world as pointing out others are propagandas. I beg next time London may be looking much ''better'' blah blah thanks for the British Inland television.

Maryjane, I am starting to like your sarcasm, and your posting really gave me a good laugh for a few minutes...

Really, seeing all these "peaceful" protestors crying for the good cause of a free tibet, I just can't help asking how much they know about Tibet and China.

If you ask any of the people in the west who has the most nuclear heads in the world, I bet most, if not all, would say it's 1 of those evil countries like Russia, North Korea or China. The truth is the great democratic and its ally have the most number of nuclear heads. They have mastered all the nuclear technology that it needs and then jump out and point to other people saying, too bad you did not start earlier, now it would be a crime that you now it.

If you ask a normal person in the west which country is the biggest exporter of war weapons to regions at war, and surprisingly it's the US and UK!! You have your ally friends and you can export any weapons of any sort to these regions while forbidding other "evil" countries to do, cause they aere evil and all these great countries are the savior of the world.

The west has gone through painfull industrialization to come at this advanced stage, well now that they have gone through the pain in the last tens of years, they are demanding developing nations to match to their standard in 1/5 or less of the time that these advanced nations took, or else these countries would be protoptyped as polluters in the world. Guess which country has the highest per capital energy consumption and pollution in the world, it's anything but the US.

It's a known fact that CIA and UK intelligence are backing up these pro-Tibet groups, and Dala Lama had a great PR program around the world in the last tens of years. History tell us time after time after time that the more tension, fragmented and unstable in the Middle East, Eastern Europe, Asia and Africa, the better to the advantage to the presumably free countries (or the CIA people would run out of work) Again, I am not saying the a lot of these believers are not doing with good intention, but again, do not take it for granted what your presumably righteous and impartial media or governmetn tells you. Att the end of the day, it's not the value or moral standard that would win, it's what's best interest to the country or their allies that take over. Propagada is universal, it's just some countries do it more intelligently. (FYI, taliban is evil, no doubt about that... but how many ordinary people in the west know that if not for CIA's back-up back in the 80's when they needed some guerillas in the middle east to help them overthrow the regimes, the taliban would not even be the way it is now). Again, I am not targeting the ordinary people, cause I can see where and why they think the way they do. All I am saying is thinking through these issue too simplitically is pretty naive.

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another youtube, not the same as the one I posted in the other thread.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ex2tIuNYRoU

i will respond to that comment, as my son gets back and translates that to me. Now Germans would never do anything like this. It is not close enough to May.

Civilty and Paris? I they do handle anything more than a walking parade of protesters well. And when it gets to SF as Baron says it will be a cluster F. Now if they had picked Chicago or even Atlanta(it is the blue country you have to worry about) it would not be have as bad.

Now my question of the post. Past torch relays. Have they been all of this going to monuments and running in empty stadiums. No really a people relay.

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This is more or less a hooliganism than civility which we know the west is used to.
this is not hooliganism. this is democracy. in a democratic society we are allowed to freely express our opinions. only a small group of people like the people trying to extinguish the flame or the one's that nearly grab the torch from runner advocates civil disobedience.
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this is not hooliganism. this is democracy. in a democratic society we are allowed to freely express our opinions. only a small group of people like the people trying to extinguish the flame or the one's that nearly grab the torch from runner advocates civil disobedience.

democracy includes the right of provoking the hooliganism, this is the ugly side. The image tells more than that whatever they want to pre-select the info. I am not supporting them to do that whatever.

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this is not hooliganism. this is democracy. in a democratic society we are allowed to freely express our opinions. only a small group of people like the people trying to extinguish the flame or the one's that nearly grab the torch from runner advocates civil disobedience.

This logic is very interesting... now if you take a poll in China today, and ask them if they want to have stability in their country, get fed and live under a stable shelter, versus if they want a vote to choos their leaders, I bet they would pick the former. The Western societies have all the luxry and comfortable lives to afford them going for aspirations beyond the basic needs, while there are majority of people in developing nations that have to fight basic suvival. Of course, the west can cry for democracy for these nations, and it's that what they need. Look at many of those countries with full democracies (well too bad and like it or not most of them at post-colonial occupation periods), they have all the democracies but there are still wide-spread poverty, inequality and violation of human rights). That might tell you something about democracy, and that it might not be all and only one of the solutions to the concerns to the West. To a lot of Chinese (and I stress the MAJORITY), stability and growth of the coutnry and economy would no doubt comes first, and like it or not, CCP has achieved it in the last 20 years or so.

If we follow the democratic principle of majority rules, the stability needed for the 1.3 billion people would likely far outweigh the violation of the human rights of the few.

(Let me stress here, cause I can see people take things out of context here... i am not endorsing the violation of human rights, but what the govt has achived in the pst 20 years is teh stability of the economy that the majority of the CHinese people needed more at the country's current stage of development.)

Really democratic and human rights movement is an evolutionary process.... even in the West, there was still racial segregation, legally, in the very recent 50's US in its hundreds of years of history. There have been great pains in the evoluation, and now the West has achieved what they think an advanced model, and do not allow for room for error on the other countries. If you ask the majority of the Chinese people and ask them to compare how it was like 15 years ago, they, and I stress the MAJORITY of them, have never enjoyed that kind of freedom of their lives.

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