Your Torch Relay 2008

[NY20??]

I can't help but laugh at Bocog for wanting to go international with this relay and then preceding to call it a "Journey of Harmony". It now feels obvious that this was going to happen; it’s almost as if they were asking for it. But, I do wonder if China’s recent crackdown on Tibet hadn’t happened, would the relay have been as affected as it has been for the last two days?

If things continue to be this bad in San Francisco, is there a possibility that the Chinese just won’t have it anymore and decide to cancel and/or shortened some of the remaining international legs of the relay?

[Citius Altius Fortius]

since nobody has posted some photos from Paris so far:

Edited April 7, 2008 by Citius Altius Fortius

[arwebb]

This is more or less a hooliganism than civility which we know the west is used to.

I would hardly describe this as hooliganism. Perhaps an over-zealous protest, but hooliganism is over the top.

[Rob2012]

I love the way certain people in this thread don't like what they see so they decide, with no evidence to back it up, that the people risking arrest know nothing of what they're protesting against! Fantastic argument. NOT!

[Maryjane]

I love the way certain people in this thread don't like what they see so they decide, with no evidence to back it up, that the people risking arrest know nothing of what they're protesting against! Fantastic argument. NOT!

Oh dear...CIA has coming out.

My friends asked the Free Tibet Parisians (local French and Turkish yobs) ( the majority of the protests saw on tv)

The paying for the day is about between 500 euros ---- 1000 euros

for joining the demostration.

And ''to be caught by police'' on TV

it's about above 10,000 euros.

The same applies to yesterday 50 ponds per hour thing in London.

Good. I heard about San (USA) would be having 6000 protesters which mainly got huge support of financial funding.

and even aircraft would be released.....

How professional and ''Let the voice to be heard''.......I am speechless

Who's insulting Olympics really? I don't know. but suddenly those FREE FIGHTERS has such organised strenth and professional propoganda thing. I am suspecting the ''Snow Ball'' effect is helping the issue as raising the rightful voice about human rights or just making their politics discontinue the universal sharing Olympic dream.

[Stu]

After what happened in London and Paris, the Beijing Olympic authorities must be wondering how to proceed with the international sections of the torch relay -with a protest on San Francisco's Golden Gate Bridge today, even before the torch arrives there, and no doubt more protests coming in Canberra, Nagano and New Delhi - do you think that the Beijing Olympic authorities will shorten the relays - or even scrap some of them altogether? It would be hugely embarrassing for them to scrap some of the international sections of the relay, however, it will be hugely embarrassing for them to have such protests in so many cities around the world.

[Ruling Czar]

People, its times like this when I absolutely hate to be so frank. Yet, its times like this when it is necessary. So, I 'm going to be very fank in the facts I shall present now.

Fact #1 :- The Beijing Olympics Shall be one of the most glittering Olympiads in the history of the olympic games.

Fact#2 :- Bejing, by right should not have been the host of the 2008. Juan antionio samaranch ( who bears a very real resemblance to Elmer Fudd), in his excitement to award the games to Bejing, ( whose bid was outdone by the excellent presentation of Toronto) did not consider the very problematic and very serious social and political variables that would most certainly come to the surface in asking china to host the games.

Fact #3 :- Dick Pound, by right, should have been the current IOC President. Juan Antonio Samaranch conspired with Jacque Rogge to oust Mr. Pound from ever getting that position even though Mr. Pound's devotion to the Olympic movement was incredibly exemplary.

Fact # 4:- Should the turmoil surrounding the torch relay continue or even escalate, this will hurt Doha's chances because the IOc will try as hard as possible not to have another games with such negative anxiety surrounding them.

fact #5: It is impossible to separate politics from sport. The mere fact that athletes represent their respective countries while participating in the olympics is the most basic evidence of this.

--------------------

Rule, and rule well.

[cfm Jeremie]

Wow, it's been an interesting day in Paris!

Chaos is the only word that come to my mind.

The Flame passed by my place and my neighbourhood was already full of policemen by 6:30 am.

It's certainly what the IOC had in mind when it awarded the Games to Beijing, but if one wants to be honest, one has to recognise that the pro-Tibet groups would have never dreamed of such a tribune.

(on a side note, I think France can kiss goodbye to hosting the Olympics any time soon as the IOC will not forget/forgive what happened in Paris today).

[Citius Altius Fortius]

on a side note, I think France can kiss goodbye to hosting the Olympics any time soon as the IOC will not forget/forgive what happened in Paris today

I don't think so, Jeremie

the IOC is dependent on stable industrialised democracies!

Otherwise the IOC would have to withdraw London the Games in 2012, too after the fire drencher attack yesterday

Edited April 7, 2008 by Citius Altius Fortius

[Rob2012]

So Beijing is just fine, but Paris a grand non non! If that's true Jeremie what a ridiculous moral tangle the IOC have got themselves into!

Edited April 7, 2008 by Rob ♪

[Ruling Czar]

People, its times like this when I absolutely hate to be so frank. Yet, its times like this when it is necessary. So, I 'm going to be very fank in the facts I shall present now.

Fact #1 :- The Beijing Olympics Shall be one of the most glittering Olympiads in the history of the olympic games.

Fact#2 :- Bejing, by right should not have been the host of the 2008. Juan antionio samaranch ( who bears a very real resemblance to Elmer Fudd), in his excitement to award the games to Bejing, ( whose bid was outdone by the excellent presentation of Toronto) did not consider the very problematic and very serious social and political variables that would most certainly come to the surface in asking china to host the games.

Fact #3 :- Dick Pound, by right, should have been the current IOC President. Juan Antonio Samaranch conspired with Jacque Rogge to oust Mr. Pound from ever getting that position even though Mr. Pound's devotion to the Olympic movement was incredibly exemplary.

Fact # 4:- Should the turmoil surrounding the torch relay continue or even escalate, this will hurt Doha's chances because the IOc will try as hard as possible not to have another games with such negative anxiety surrounding them.

fact #5: It is impossible to separate politics from sport. The mere fact that athletes represent their respective countries while participating in the olympics is the most basic evidence of this.

--------------------

Rule, and rule well.

[LA84]

And the fun begins in San Francisco . . .

[Maryjane]

Wow, it's been an interesting day in Paris!

Chaos is the only word that come to my mind.

The Flame passed by my place and my neighbourhood was already full of policemen by 6:30 am.

It's certainly what the IOC had in mind when it awarded the Games to Beijing, but if one wants to be honest, one has to recognise that the pro-Tibet groups would have never dreamed of such a tribune.

(on a side note, I think France can kiss goodbye to hosting the Olympics any time soon as the IOC will not forget/forgive what happened in Paris today).

True, they can only say goodbye to a 20 billion trade deal with China and ordinary Chinese people's ''admires'' from now on.

China - France going to bottom.

Shame on Paris even could't protect the flame.

[Rob2012]

impressive...

[arwebb]

Oh dear...CIA has coming out.

My friends asked the Free Tibet Parisians (local French and Turkish yobs) ( the majority of the protests saw on tv)

The paying for the day is about between 500 euros ---- 1000 euros

for joining the demostration.

And ''to be caught by police'' on TV

it's about above 10,000 euros.

The same applies to yesterday 50 ponds per hour thing in London.

Good. I heard about San (USA) would be having 6000 protesters which mainly got huge support of financial funding.

and even aircraft would be released.....

How professional and ''Let the voice to be heard''.......I am speechless

Who's insulting Olympics really? I don't know. but suddenly those FREE FIGHTERS has such organised strenth and professional propoganda thing. I am suspecting the ''Snow Ball'' effect is helping the issue as raising the rightful voice about human rights or just making their politics discontinue the universal sharing Olympic dream.

It's very easy to make allegations based on anecdotal claims, which may be little or no more than idle gossip, but these allegations, for that is what they currently are, need to be backed up by hard evidence. I see no indication that you have that at the present moment. Your "friends" won't do on that score, I'm afraid.

This whole episode is damaging to the Olympic movement, but it is the fault of one side or another in this argument. If anything is to blame, it is the IOC's own naivety.

[cfm Jeremie]

Shame on Paris even could't protect the flame.

Dumb *ss, the decision to cancel the relay was made by BOCOG just as the Flame was passing by the Parliament as several representatives were standing there waving Tibet Flags. Strange coincidence isn't it?

[arwebb]

Perhaps BOCOG are starting to recognise exactly the strength of feeling that is against the Chinese regime at this moment, and if they're not getting the message yet, the news coming out of San Francisco should certainly help to get it through.

[Maryjane]

Dumb *ss, the decision to cancel the relay was made by BOCOG just as the Flame was passing by the Parliament as several representatives were standing there waving Tibet Flags. Strange coincidence isn't it?

lol......

13 h 01, la flamme éteinte et évacuée - Les forces de l'ordre escortant la flamme olympique décident de l'éteindre en raison du nombre important de manifestants, et de l'évacuer vers un endroit inconnu à bord d'un bus. L'incident a eu lieu au bord de la Seine.

BOCOG? you shitty asshole.

[Rob2012]

Do you know why you've only got one star on your profile MaryJane?

[cfm Jeremie]

lol......

13 h 01, la flamme éteinte et évacuée - Les forces de l'ordre escortant la flamme olympique décident de l'éteindre en raison du nombre important de manifestants, et de l'évacuer vers un endroit inconnu à bord d'un bus. L'incident a eu lieu au bord de la Seine.

BOCOG? you shitty asshole.

And then the Torch relay started again but yeah you are right. The eventual decision to suspend the relay was taken as the Flame got by the Assemblée Nationale by BOCOG. And who decided not to stop at Paris City Hall? BOCOG again!

And who do you think "Forces de l'ordre" stands for? BOCOG escort staff.

Truth is BOCOG has created this whole mess and does not know how to handle it.

Edited April 7, 2008 by cfm Jeremie

[Maryjane]

And then the Torch relay started again but yeah you are right. The eventual decision to suspend the relay was taken as the Flame got by the Assemblée Nationale by BOCOG. And who decided not to stop at Paris City Hall? BOCOG again!

And who do you think "Forces de l'ordre" stands for? BOCOG escort staff.

Truth is BOCOG has created this whole mess and does not know how to handle it.

Oh really? who were paying 300 euros per day and above 10,000 euros ''to be caught by police on Tele'' who even couldn't point out the exact position of Tibet (Thanks for my French mate in Paris) ? And compares to London's polices yesterday. I understand why Paris has been taken over by Nazis just a week. lol.....

so BOCOG has become the ideal easy target to put all blames on about the entire Olympics. bullshit and enjoy your French liberty dream.

[arwebb]

Repeating the same allegations with the same lack of hard evidence doesn't make them true.

[cfm Jeremie]

so BOCOG has become the ideal easy target to put all blames on about the entire Olympics. bullshit and enjoy your French liberty dream.

BOCOG runs the Olympic Torch Relay. That's a fact.

BOCOG decided to stage an international Torch Relay. That's a fact.

BOCOG is the ultimate authority when it comes to staging the Olympic Torch Relay (by delegation of the IOC), they are the ones who selected the cities visited by the Torch Relay, they are the ones giving the final approval about who the torch bearers are, they are the ones deciding to stop the relay. That's facts.

I notice that you ignored the fact that I posted (the Torch relay restarted after 13h01) to add some new trash. Even IF what you posted were true (that people were paid to protest - where does the money come from BTW: thousands of protesters in London, Paris, most likely in San Franciso... That's a lot of money), it doesn't change the fact that BOCOG decided to skip the stop at Paris City Hall, and to cancel the last part of the relay.

I won't comment about your kind post about nazis taking over Paris.

Edited April 7, 2008 by cfm Jeremie

[Sir Rols]

Sigh!

Okay. After a few days of being very sick and only having the energy to watch events here and on the relay but not to comment, I suppose I'm ready for my two cents worth.

There are many people on GamesBids like myself who have seen Olympic torch relays. Some, like Pyrros, have even been torchbearers. And let me tell you, past relays have not been like this one. From what I've experienced, they've been joyous occasions, almost casual, able to lift one's spirits and get one excited and enthusiastic in anticiopation about an upcoming games. I remember seeing the flame go past in Sydney _ there was no-one between me and the torchbearer. Peo0ple could have, and some did, pat the torchbearers on the back and utter phrases like ""good onya''. It was fun. It was uplifting.

Contrast this with the images out of London and Paris. It was never liked an armed camp proceeding through a city, hidden by a wall of security personnel that would make a US Presidential motorcade look unprotected. This is more like a military operation than a moment of joyous celebration.

And that's all inrcedibly sad. It's just so against the Olympic spirit which got so many of us here on GamesBids hooked on the games in the first place.

For many of us, like CAF, LA84, the baron, Puppy and Jeremie, I'm sure this is reviving bad memories of the early 80s and the bitterness and cynicism that marred the games of 1980 and 84. It's a tregedy this has been able to happen.

It's true, this is an Olympic Torch Relay, it shouldn't be about politics. It should be a celebration for the world. Yet I'm not naive enough to think also that the relays, and this one especially, can be divorced from world realities and opinions. I still believe in the ideal, but I also recognise that for many people, understandably, this relay is being seen more as a celebration of a repressive government than international togetherness. Perhaps the big mistake was for the Chinese to make this an international relay _ if they had confined it to China or their Asian neighbours, it may have retained its celebratory symbolism.

But it's too late now. The relay has most definitely been tainted. And it's a sad day for Olympism. And I don't want to take sides _ there are merits and faults to both sides of the China, Human Rights, Tibetan, Olympic debates.

I just hope it's not too late to save the image of these upcoming games. Wouldn't it be wonderful if both sides, or even just one side, made that grand leap of good will gesture that could lift this who imbroglio from becoming an increasingly viscious and bitter fight into a celebration of what the Olympics should represent. If China could announce (whether sincere or not) that they would start talks with the Dalai Lama as a gesture of their goodwill. If the Dalai Lama could say he was willing to participate himself inthe relay as a gesture of his goodwill. It would change the whole mood immediately. I'm not confident it will happen, but I'm still hopeful that some goodwill could prevail and turn what is looking like being a negative Olympics into one of the very positive Olympics.

[Xu Wen-Ting]

I think, all of us should be shame...

As your sayings that so called "Human Rights", "Tibetan", or other things in China.

But London is the host city of 2012 SOG, and Paris is candidate city of 2008 and 2012... Who really understand Olympic spirit?

What's Olympic really is? These people really cant understand.