Olympic Cauldrons

[mr.x]

It appears the rumours of a new retractable roof are starting to die down.

Olympic Update

Jeff Lee, Vancouver Sun

Published: Monday, March 03, 2008

Keeping Vancouver's olympic flame alive will take innovative thinking

In the history of the Olympic Games, there have been all types of cauldrons and all manners in which they were lit with the flame from Olympia, Greece. But Vancouver promises to be unlike any other simply because, for the first time ever, the cauldron will be entirely enclosed within a building at BC Place.

A cauldron is lit on stage at the Olympic Stadium in Turin, Italy, on Mar. 10, 2006, during the Turin Games opening ceremony. David Atkins, the executive producer of ceremonies for the Vancouver 2010 Games, has a major challenge. Recent cauldrons have all been seen from outside the host's stadium, he said. Vancouver's may, too, if designers decide to link a separate cauldron outside BC Place with the one that must be inside, he said. But he makes no promises. Atkins, who designed the ceremonies for both the 2000 Sydney Olympics and the 2006 Asian Games in Doha, Qatar, said the International Olympic Committee only mandates that the flame be seen by everyone inside the stadium.

For 2010, there will actually be two cauldrons -- one in Vancouver and the other in Whistler. The two will have to be linked somehow, Atkins said. But whether or not a third or associated cauldron will be connected outside BC Place so that the rest of the city can see the flame has not yet been decided. "The fact that this cauldron has to live inside BC Place for the two weeks of the Games will, by the sheer criteria we have to use to design it, be innovative," he said. "It will be a cauldron that has never been done before because it has never been inside." But don't expect Atkins and his creative crew to say much more.

Cauldron lighting ceremonies are closely guarded secrets, and Atkins is promising Vancouver's will be as well. "It's the jewel in the crown of the Games, until the night of the ceremony," he said. Atkins hinted that Vancouver's cauldron may also be linked into the cultural story that is performed just before the lighting. Other Olympic lighting ceremonies in the past have not, but Atkins used the cauldron in the Doha Asian Games as a central theme in that story.

[baron-pierreIV]

Heeeeeeeeeeeeeyyy, wait a second.

LIGHT THE FIRE WITHIN was Salt Lake's mantra. Vancouver has no right to use that!!!

[rav3n]

...the International Olympic Committee only mandates that the flame be seen by everyone inside the stadium.

Well guys, with this, the confussions about the IOC policy with the cauldrons should end now, and it seems that it doesn't matter that the flame cannot be seen outside of the stadium. Something interesting if we put that to Beijing 2008. I wasn't expecting another thing, there was very little time to built a retracatble roof.

PD: Baron, why do you always defend SLC2002 or Atlanta 96 on the forums?

[Olympian2004]

...the International Olympic Committee only mandates that the flame be seen by everyone inside the stadium.

And I knew that something was wrong about Baron's claim that the IOC mandates the flame has to be seen from the outside in the first place!

But is there any written regulation in which the IOC has prescribed that the flame has to be seen by everyone inside the stadium? The Olympic Charter doesn't contain any.

[Kenadian]

I thought it once said the flame must be visible to those in the stadium and if possible to those outside as well. Montreal, Seoul and possibly now Beijing did not have stadium designs that allowed this. Same is likely for Vancouver.

[mattygs]

There is nooooo way in he11 that there should NOT be another cauldron outside the stadium.

Im sorry, but what kind of sad ass Olympic host has the cauldron inside for virtually noone to see. It's just dum. lol.

Actually, the Sydney 2000 Paralympics used the concept of *the fire within* alot during their ceremonies.

[baron-pierreIV]

There is nooooo way in he11 that there should NOT be another cauldron outside the stadium.

Im sorry, but what kind of sad ass Olympic host has the cauldron inside for virtually noone to see. It's just dum. lol.

I agree. Next thing you know -- to be environmentally correct -- they will just have TV screens at all venues showing 'flames' for only 4 hours a day. Taken from those electric fireplaces availalbe at your local Home Depot.

Yao Ming, practice lighting the switch!!!

Edited March 4, 2008 by baron-pierreIV

[cfm Jeremie]

That's an interesting one:

• in the Olympic Charter from 14th July 2001, rule 68 states that "The Olympic Flame must be placed in aprominent position, clearly visible and, where the structure of the stadium permits, visible also from outside the stadium"
  
• such rule is not present in the 1St September 2004 version of the Charter
  

However, I would be very very surprised if Vancouver doesn't have a Flame outside BC Place.

[baron-pierreIV]

That's an interesting one:

• in the Olympic Charter from 14th July 2001, rule 68 states that "The Olympic Flame must be placed in aprominent position, clearly visible and, where the structure of the stadium permits, visible also from outside the stadium"
  
• such rule is not present in the 1St September 2004 version of the Charter
  

However, I would be very very surprised if Vancouver doesn't have a Flame outside BC Place.

But, like most legislation, until such rule is amended, then it is in effect. And even if it were overtuned by the Sept '04 version, Vancouver was selected and SIGNED its contract with the IOC in 2003, so it would sort of still be bound by the 'outside' rule.

In any case, if they are having one in Whistler and none in downtown Vacnouver, so the 'outside' rule would be satisfied. Except the cauldron would be, what? 65 miles away from the original stadium? And the IOC charter say nothing about distance. Right?

Edited March 4, 2008 by baron-pierreIV

[Kenadian]

There is nooooo way in he11 that there should NOT be another cauldron outside the stadium.

Im sorry, but what kind of sad ass Olympic host has the cauldron inside for virtually noone to see. It's just dum. lol.

Seoul? Montreal?

One of the things that you forget with Vancouver's plan is that the stadium will be in use the entire Olympics - a rare thing for the Winter Olympics - because it will stage nightly parties and medal presentations. The lonely fires of Calgary, Salt Lake, and Nagano were not part of a central facility, used only for opening and closing ceremonies.

[mattygs]

True, but the Olympic world has changed a lil bit since back then.

And while BCP will be used alot during the Games for medal ceremonies etc etc, it is still the Olympic cauldron stuck inside.

[Jamie25]

You still haven't addressed the issue of the heat and fumes from that huge flame. The Stadium is air tight; note the revolving doors to help keep the air in. How will you expel the fumes and particulates with 60,000 people in the building?

And the heat from the flame will rise and cause the dome to expand and burst. Furthermore the fumes would be very unhealthy and the dome would stink.

That flame has to be lit continuously for 17 days. That's 17 days of pent up heat, fumes, particulates, odor.

Then they want to have electric fans sucking and expelling out the particulate matter and fumes from the flame but air is required to keep the dome from sagging, so we're going to have fans both blowing in and sucking out, essentially fans working against each other? What kind of stupid engineering idea is that? That's crazy and has never worked on a scale as grand as this.

This is the Olympics and its no time to fool around with high school engineering.

Have you ever been in BC Place in a sell out crowd of 60,000? By the second half of the game there's a haze from all the CO2 expelled from the lungs of 60,000 fans. Now add on top of that the fumes and heat from the flame cauldron; and may I remind you that flame is big.

[mr.x]

^ the fumes and particulates from the flame will be an issue, but I'm not sure if the heat is....considering that the roof is heated to 60c from an adjacent steam plant in the event of snow accumulation on the roof. That's what I've heard from someone else.

Have you ever been in BC Place in a sell out crowd of 60,000? By the second half of the game there's a haze from all the CO2 expelled from the lungs of 60,000 fans. Now add on top of that the fumes and heat from the flame cauldron; and may I remind you that flame is big.

That's what causes the haze? o_O I didn't know.

[baron-pierreIV]

You still haven't addressed the issue of the heat and fumes from that huge flame. The Stadium is air tight; note the revolving doors to help keep the air in. How will you expel the fumes and particulates with 60,000 people in the building?

And the heat from the flame will rise and cause the dome to expand and burst. Furthermore the fumes would be very unhealthy and the dome would stink.

That flame has to be lit continuously for 17 days. That's 17 days of pent up heat, fumes, particulates, odor.

Then they want to have electric fans sucking and expelling out the particulate matter and fumes from the flame but air is required to keep the dome from sagging, so we're going to have fans both blowing in and sucking out, essentially fans working against each other? What kind of stupid engineering idea is that? That's crazy and has never worked on a scale as grand as this.

This is the Olympics and its no time to fool around with high school engineering.

Have you ever been in BC Place in a sell out crowd of 60,000? By the second half of the game there's a haze from all the CO2 expelled from the lungs of 60,000 fans. Now add on top of that the fumes and heat from the flame cauldron; and may I remind you that flame is big.

They will find ways to clear the air. Plus, when the cauldron is lit, there will probably be like 10-15 minutes of the Ceremony left. So there isn't going to be a major build-up of fumes and CO2 by the end of the evening. I think if the IOC will survive Beijing, they will survive anything.

[Jamie25]

You do know that flame burns at 1500 to 3000 degrees? A flame that hot will heat up the building. There will have to be quite an air conditioning system in place.

One wonders what the Fire Marshall thinks of this idea. An open flame in an indoor Stadium. They will have to do a test of the Flame and take air samples before the event to make sure fumes are at a safe level for patrons.

Now how high will the cauldron be? How close to the roof? If you want to avoid heating up a small section of the roof you can have the Cauldron lower but then it doesn't look so good.

Let me tell ya something. Two years ago I was at the Monster Truck show at BC Place. One of the highlights was they brought this jet engine type vehicle out. It was a big truck with an engine on the back, producing a flamethrower effect.

Every time the flame was ignited you could really feel the heat on your face, and I was standing up on the upper level.

Now imagine the heat on a small section of the roof when a flame like that is left on for days and days, even for the duration of the Ceremonies.

Remember, a natural gas flame burns at 1500 to 3000 degrees. They're proposing to be dealing with those sorts of temperatures in an air tight dome?

[james]

Am a little pertube about some technical views here on Cauldron light. Mostly, evening or night time is usually cool and breezy.

[Victor Mata]

The cauldron is lit late in the OC. Right.

How about the closing ceremony? The flame will have to burn for 2 and a half hours until it's extinguished. Kinda toxic, huh? It will surely be the most awaited moment of Vancouver 2010 Closing Ceremony, specially for the people inside BC Place!!! It will be the largest barbecue since Seul '88.

[james]

The cauldron is lit late in the OC. Right.

How about the closing ceremony? The flame will have to burn for 2 and a half hours until it's extinguished. Kinda toxic, huh? It will surely be the most awaited moment of Vancouver 2010 Closing Ceremony, specially for the people inside BC Place!!! It will be the largest barbecue since Seul '88.

I doubt it.

If you can explain better why you think it will be your so called largest barbecue since Seul '88 might be more apprecitaed by me.

[mr.x]

The cauldron is lit late in the OC. Right.

How about the closing ceremony? The flame will have to burn for 2 and a half hours until it's extinguished. Kinda toxic, huh? It will surely be the most awaited moment of Vancouver 2010 Closing Ceremony, specially for the people inside BC Place!!! It will be the largest barbecue since Seul '88.

Don't forget that there will be 45,000 people inside the stadium each night for two hours during the Games for the medal ceremonies and concerts.

[Kenadian]

Who even says the fire has to be huge? They could put a tiny flame in to a highly reflective cauldron and give it the appearance of being bigger - think disco ball. Plus it would be "greener". They could use some sort of video technology. Maybe even a glass tube. Everyone is thinking outside of the dome and not thinking outside of the box. There is a solution out there, and it doesn't necessarily require rebuilding a whole stadium just for a flicker of fire.

[Guardian]

Seoul? Montreal?

One of the things that you forget with Vancouver's plan is that the stadium will be in use the entire Olympics - a rare thing for the Winter Olympics - because it will stage nightly parties and medal presentations. The lonely fires of Calgary, Salt Lake, and Nagano were not part of a central facility, used only for opening and closing ceremonies.

Well, Calgary had the other unofficial ones at all locales that had to do with the Winter Olympics, from the Calgary Tower to the Canmore Nordic Centre.

[mr.x]

Who even says the fire has to be huge? They could put a tiny flame in to a highly reflective cauldron and give it the appearance of being bigger - think disco ball. Plus it would be "greener". They could use some sort of video technology. Maybe even a glass tube. Everyone is thinking outside of the dome and not thinking outside of the box. There is a solution out there, and it doesn't necessarily require rebuilding a whole stadium just for a flicker of fire.

The Vancouver 2010 Olympic flame.

[seamus21514]

hell, the torch they use inside the stadium could be plugged up to a continuous gas line or something, for the inside.

[Kenadian]

Well, Calgary had the other unofficial ones at all locales that had to do with the Winter Olympics, from the Calgary Tower to the Canmore Nordic Centre.

They all do that.

The flame is only a symbol. A powerful one, but still, only a symbol.

[Jamie25]

At what temperature will the Olympic Cauldron flame inside BC Place burn at? What gas is used? What fumes are emitted?

Please provide references as to what the temperature of the flame is in the cauldron. I look around and can't see any specifics as to flame temperature for the cauldron, just general temps for flames in air or oxygen rich atmospheres.

Also, would this prank by VANOC be allowed by the Fire Marshall? Where can I get specific references to fire regulations for enclosed stadiums and airtight atmospheres?