Lula Attacks Olympic Prejudice

[baron-pierreIV]

President Lula launches the Infrastructure Works Program in Rio de Janeiro

Work will begin next Monday, March 10, and will mean an investment of US$ 670 million in urban infrastructure in areas of social interest for Rio de Janeiro

http://www.rio2016.org.br/en/Noticias/Noti...?idConteudo=486

RIO city is realy getting a facelift from the Lula. This proves how serious he's working toward hosting Olympic 2016 despite complaining about any form of prejudices.

So what, james? Again, you're talking outta your hat. All of this is for 2014. If 2016 goes to Rio, then they're going to have to give everything a fresh coat of paint to make it look presentable only after 2 years.

Yup, Brazil/Rio's double-deal will cost the Brazilian people a lot to have these back-to-back parties. Mucho; mucho.

But we shall first see if Rio even makes the short list.

[james]

So what, james? Again, you're talking outta your hat. All of this is for 2014. If 2016 goes to Rio, then they're going to have to give everything a fresh coat of paint to make it look presentable only after 2 years.

Yup, Brazil/Rio's double-deal will cost the Brazilian people a lot to have these back-to-back parties. Mucho; mucho.

But we shall first see if Rio even makes the short list.

No is not for WC2014! This news is coiled from the RIO's2016 website, Baron.

[baron-pierreIV]

No is not for WC2014! This news is coiled from the RIO's2016 website, Baron.

1. It's "culled" -- not COILED. Whaddya think it was a snake or a hotplate coil?

2. Of course it's for 2014 FIRST. They have NOT been awarded 2016 -- so how can they be setting aside budgets for that? They are committed to 2014 first. What do you think -- they will say to a 2014 guest: Oh, you cannot use this WC; it is from the budget for 2016??

Will you use your head, james!

What I'm saying is: 2014 is a 'go,' so they are gearing up for that. 2016 is NOT in the bag (yet). If that happens, then they are going to have refresh, repaint Rio and the 3 other satellite soccer cities for the Olympics. All that primping up and refreshing will cost another extra $40-50 million for a 2016 fresh-face from things that were only new 2 years previous.

Or maybe this concept is again too complicated for you?

[james]

Is not cos I can not agree with on that as long as that news was culled by me from RIO's 2016 website.

[Rafa]

there this misconception that world cup transport preparations somehow cover all the planning and capacity needed to host an olympic games...the olympic transport budget would be at least 3 times the world cup transport budget for Rio if not more..and Rio delivering on both infrastructure between 2010 and 2014 based on their lack of progress since the last bid will be quite a challenge.

[cfm Jeremie]

and Rio delivering on both infrastructure between 2010 and 2014 based on their lack of progress since the last bid will be quite a challenge.

Except that what is planned for 2016 is less sexy than the 2012 bid but much more realistic: scrap the extensive metro plan and go with bus with dedicated express lanes. Might be doable this time (or at least less undoable).

[Rafa]

Except that what is planned for 2016 is less sexy than the 2012 bid but much more realistic: scrap the extensive metro plan and go with bus with dedicated express lanes. Might be doable this time (or at least less undoable).

assuming that the IOC finds the the reliance on BRT is sufficient to host the Games.

IMO its the interplay between various modes of transport that result in a successful Games transport plan.

Rail should be incorporated into areas that would benefit with a quick rail link( that doesnt have to travel through mountains/jungles)

[cfm Jeremie]

From my own experience in Athens and Torino, buses and dedicated bus lanes are really convenient and efficient IF there is enough space nearby the venues to organise spectators loading and unloading, as well as parking area for the bus fleet so that a high frequency can be obtained.

I have been amazed at how quickly and smoothly the OAKA was emptied in Athens.

[jim jones]

there this misconception that world cup transport preparations somehow cover all the planning and capacity needed to host an olympic games...the olympic transport budget would be at least 3 times the world cup transport budget for Rio if not more..and Rio delivering on both infrastructure between 2010 and 2014 based on their lack of progress since the last bid will be quite a challenge.

Are we talking 3 times the Budget for just Rio for the Games VS World cup or three times the cost for the Country.

considering that for both you are looking at the following Mineirão, in Belo Horizonte, Mané Garrincha, in Brasília and Morumbi, in São Paulo were soccer matches will take place. There is also a new stadium to be built in the city of Salvador. You have interurban transport to be considered but with the world cup the geographical footprint is larger with 12 stadiums in at least 10 cities.

Considering that in the Rio Bid a portion of accoms are on Cruise Ships and this is one of the Larger Harbors in the world a totally different dimension can be at play then lets say the World Cup in 2014 or Chicago's 2016 bid that does not have Rio's Waterfront Advantage. Downtown Rio has 9000 running feet of Dock. Then you have a Navy Yard right beside that downtown city dock and the downtown airport .

A typical cruise ship can take 2000 people and is a less then 1000 feet long typically. So right there you have accoms for 18000 not including Ships that could be at anchor and have tendering operations . I have been to those docks personally with a Holland America Cruise ship and the nearest subway station is not far at all 3100 feet and buses run from that steadly. The Central Train station has trains going out to Maracana and the new Olympic stadium is 6500 feet from the docks. The Dock area also has elevated dual highway running beside it plus some very wide City streets. The Track to Maracana has 4 tracks or about

Then with the possibility that 36000 people could be Accomied on Cruise Ships very easily as the berthing space is there for about 9 ships at anchor in the harbor. you have plenty of existing hotels in the city. 6 million people in Rio would certainly be filling the stands alone with how many more from San Paulo.

and other large cities in Brazil.

Rio has the advantage of the Harbour that is only matched by Tokyo and Doha in this 2016 round of bid and neither London 2012 of Beijing 2008 have that advantage either. Athens 2004 used Cruise ships for limited Accoms. Chicago you will not get any cruise ships into Lake Michigan . The St Lawrence seaway does not have the Draft or Width for your typical cruise ships. Baku and Madrid are land locked.

No the World Cup Does not cover all of Rio for Transportation for the 2016 bid but It covers much of the larger parts IE the Intercity Transportation to Belo Horizonte, Brasília , São Paulo and Salvador and Two stadiums to be used for both the world cup and the olympics.

I really can't see where you can get 3 times the cost for the Olympics in regards to transportation compared to the World Cup unless you have 30 cities in a nation having Olympic venues and thus the international airports , Highway Rail and urban Transit upgrades. Please put away your South Africa should host the Olympics before Brazil Nonsense. I am sure that South Africa could wait until 2024 if it does not feel that back to back frontier bids are in the cards.

Personally i could see Rio then Cape Town Easily especially if the United States Does not bid in 2020 and Rio indeed wins 2016. A 2018 winter olmypics in America is very possible considering that 8 years was the span from Salt lake to Vancouver for North America hosting. Europe has done it as well.

considering Athens 3.5 million tickets sales for their games compared to Sydney 2000's 5 million you could see Europe actually not having the games in 2020 depending on what London 2012 does. London 2012 has to do 5 million at least.

jim jones

[cfm Jeremie]

Considering that in the Rio Bid a portion of accoms are on Cruise Ships and this is one of the Larger Harbors in the world a totally different dimension can be at play then lets say the World Cup in 2014 or Chicago's 2016 bid that does not have Rio's Waterfront Advantage.

Darn right.

I guess poor Chicago is doomed unless they make use of their existing 90 000 rooms located within 50 km radius from the Olympic Village (30,000 of them within 10 km). An additional 4,500 rooms are planned.

[baron-pierreIV]

Athens 2004 used Cruise ships for limited Accoms. Chicago you will not get any cruise ships into Lake Michigan .

Athens had what? 4 or 6 cruise ships? And those accommodations weren't cheap either.

Besides, how many cruise lines will berth their AAA ships for the 17 days in Rio? I'd say no more than half-a-dozen. And the more cruise ships you berth -- the bigger the security headache is, you know -- 24/7, above AND underwater.

[Rafa]

am i going crazy?

when did i mention accommodation in my comments..or even cape town and a possible olympic bid...

jim - improved connections to other 2014 host cities is perhaps the easiest part of an olympic transport plan, because its usually existing infrastructure that needs to be upgraded. its the three or more major corridors relying on BRT thats the issue. the 20+km to the olympic stadium for 2,000 athelets for their events and for 10,000 during the ceremonies. its the peak olmpic traffic of around 600,000 people with no margin for error if one of the BRT routes has any issues.

Let me conclude by saying u're very very naive with regards to olympic planning. You say a whole lot but nothing at all.

In the case of Rio I'm suprised people have failed to notice.

18 venues are more than 30km from the olympic village, with the olympic stadium 26 mins from the village.

In comparison Chicago has like 1 venue outside a 15km distance from the village

[baron-pierreIV]

18 venues are more than 30km from the olympic village, with the olympic stadium 26 mins from the village.

In comparison Chicago has like 1 venue outside a 15km distance from the village

Hmmm. Not good. But let me reprint it in bigger font in case anyone in Lausanne misses it:

Rio: 18 venues are more than 30km from the olympic village, with the olympic stadium 26 mins from the village.

In comparison Chicago has like 1 venue outside a 15km distance from the village

[Rafa]

chicago's average distance to venues will def be taken into account in my evaluation. hoping to get through each city before the IOC releases its own evaluation.

it seems kinda illogical, that if you score really low in your 2012 evaluation under transport to place 18 venues more than 30 mins from the olympic village and to have 2000 athletes 26 mins from the olympic stadium for their events..or am i missing something?

[james]

ODEPA delegate emphasizes Rio’s capacity to host the 2016 Olympic Games

http://www.rio2016.com.br/en/Noticias/Noti...?idConteudo=489

Very significatant part os Rio's bid "places Rio de Janeiro at the same level as the world’s strongest cities in Olympic terms"

[baron-pierreIV]

ODEPA delegate emphasizes Rio’s capacity to host the 2016 Olympic Games

http://www.rio2016.com.br/en/Noticias/Noti...?idConteudo=489

Very significatant part os Rio's bid "places Rio de Janeiro at the same level as the world’s strongest cities in Olympic terms"

That doesn't mean much.

#1 - you quote it from the Rio2016 page. That's kinda obvious.

#2 - ODEPA is probably the weakest of the regional conferences (after Europe, Asia-Oceania, Africa, then ODEPA) in terms of members, IOC votes -- thus influence w/in the IOC. What's more influential in IOC voting are the individual sports federations vs. the regional groupings.

#3 - He's ONE member, and is ONLY a member of ODEPA -- not even the President or Vice-president.

Just another whistle in the wind.

[james]

For a reminder Rio is known to be one of the most beautiful cities of the world. The sucessful hosting of FIFA 2014 would act as test ground for the Olympic to usher in more chance for Rio to host 2016 Olympic - I know it might not apply but this a fact that cannot be totally ruled out. Rio in this ongoing bid can not fall below the top three which are going to be shortlisted for 2016 Olympic and, if happen that it is not shortlisted know that they never did their homework properly after three time previous applications.

I know ppl would doubt me here of the truth about Rio chance if it finally makes the shortlist -when proper protocol are followed this time. The English man would say twice bitten, once shy or should I say thrice bitten, once shy for RIO's bid. Common, guyz!

[Rafa]

For a reminder Rio is known to be one of the most beautiful cities of the world. The sucessful hosting of FIFA 2014 would act as test ground for the Olympic to usher in more chance for Rio to host 2016 Olympic - I know it might not apply but this a fact that cannot be totally ruled out. Rio in this ongoing bid can not fall below the top three which are going to be shortlisted for 2016 Olympic and, if happen that it is not shortlisted know that they never did their homework properly after three time previous applications.

I know ppl would doubt me here of the truth about Rio chance if it finally makes the shortlist -when proper protocol are followed this time. The English man would say twice bitten, once shy or should I say thrice bitten, once shy for RIO's bid. Common, guyz!

madrid will top the shortlist followed by Tokyo and then Chicago or Tokyo and Chicago might swop.

Rio in fourth is not certain but likely.

[james]

Rio in fourth is not certain but likely.

I might doubt your last line of comment cos the quality of Rio infrastruture can easily be upgraded. I think security which is a big issue in past application can easily be sorted out,as Rio really wants to host this time.The Rio's venues is not more than 30 minutes drive making it one of the compact among the bidders.

Aren't three times bid something reasonable for the IOC to consider Rio's chance in this 2016 bid? Or is FIFA 2014 a kind of consideration of Brazil failed previous application? If not I think there's nothing actually going to hold Rio from not getting shortlisted except if they withdraw from the race.

[cfm Jeremie]

I might doubt your last line of comment cos the quality of Rio infrastruture can easily be upgraded. I think security which is a big issue in past application can easily be sorted out,as Rio really wants to host this time.The Rio's venues is not more than 30 minutes drive making it one of the compact among the bidders.

Aren't three times bid something reasonable for the IOC to consider Rio's chance in this 2016 bid? Or is FIFA 2014 a kind of consideration of Brazil failed previous application? If not I think there's nothing actually going to hold Rio from not getting shortlisted except if they withdraw from the race.

James, you obviously:

• don't know a thing about the Olympic bid process (the selection of candidate cities is mainly technical, so it's not a question of whether Rio has bidded often enough but whether Rio has improved its technical file enough to convince the IOC it's not a risky choice)
  
• haven't read the bid applications: several venues are more than 45 minutes away from the village (BMX, white water canoe, equestrian...); Tokyo, Chicago, Doha, Madrid are definitely more compact than Rio
  

All the above doesn't mean that Rio doesn't stand a chance but you should seriously back your claim and make a little research.

[james]

James, you obviously:

• don't know a thing about the Olympic bid process (the selection of candidate cities is mainly technical, so it's not a question of whether Rio has bidded often enough but whether Rio has improved its technical file enough to convince the IOC it's not a risky choice)
  
• haven't read the bid applications: several venues are more than 45 minutes away from the village (BMX, white water canoe, equestrian...); Tokyo, Chicago, Doha, Madrid are definitely more compact than Rio
  

All the above doesn't mean that Rio doesn't stand a chance but you should seriously back your claim and make a little research.

1.Can you help with the list of technicalities that you are talking about? An often bid is an experienced bid from my view cos it's a gotten whole good idea on what it takes.

2. I read some bid application and there no wheer it was specified several of the venues are more than 45 munite but this depends on the average speed for Rio. For your information 50% of the venues is within 5-10 minute drive on page 24 of the bid book.

Though, am not a professional in games bidding processes, my enthusiasm for games does not prove I don't source for facts before posting all the time. I think Rio chance for the shortlist is affirmatively going to be.

[cfm Jeremie]

1.Can you help with the list of technicalities that you are talking about? An often bid is an experienced bid from my view cos it's a gotten whole good idea on what it takes.

Transportation and accommodation come top. In both areas Rio needs to improve and to convince the IOC experts panel that it can deliver what it takes within 7 years.

Of course having an experienced team is important but history is filled with examples of multiple times bidders that didn't win in the end (Paris, Ostersund, Istanbul...).

2. I read some bid application and there no wheer it was specified several of the venues are more than 45 munite but this depends on the average speed for Rio. For your information 50% of the venues is within 5-10 minute drive on page 24 of the bid book.

Yeah it does. Go to the appendix where every applicant city had to fill in a table indicating the travelling time between the various venues. You will see that Rio is far from being the most compact.

[IceNarcissus]

Wowowow. Rio not certain? I would say Rio and Chicago are the only definites in the shortlist, and probably Tokyo just to make a contest out of it. I'm still not convinced of any major incentive for Tokyo to host. Both idealists and conservatives would put their votes elsewhere. But that's for a different thread.

After securing such a large venue investment it would kind be stupid for Rio not to be included. Might as well not include Pyeongchang in the next WOG cycle "just for the heck of it".

The question over transporation is valid though. 30km would be a big pain to overcome. One thing that is problematic over compact plans however is overcrowding at peak times and security threats. Just look at how many very compact bids have been rejected lately, although some of those have a lot to do with venue security. Rio's plan could pose some problems, especially if normal metropolitan traffic isn't kept under tabs, but overall the plan is very realistic and doesn't play the issue down.

I'm starting to think the biggest obstacle in bidding isn't facing a very difficult logistic, but it's a matter of how well it can just be dealt with without trying to drastically overhaul every single area and function.

[baron-pierreIV]

Wowowow. Rio not certain? I would say Rio and Chicago are the only definites in the shortlist, and probably Tokyo just to make a contest out of it.

Uhmm, Chicago, Madrid and Tokyo are the 3 sure ones.

The thing with Rio's situation (or for all the cities really is) is how will they fare during those days when major competition is going on simultaneously at 15 venues or so. How will their roads and transport system handle the visitors, the athletes, the media, the Olympic family? Will it get the athletes and the press to their respective venues on time? What are the alternate plans?

[cfm Jeremie]

Wowowow. Rio not certain? I would say Rio and Chicago are the only definites in the shortlist, and probably Tokyo just to make a contest out of it. I'm still not convinced of any major incentive for Tokyo to host. Both idealists and conservatives would put their votes elsewhere. But that's for a different thread.

After securing such a large venue investment it would kind be stupid for Rio not to be included. Might as well not include Pyeongchang in the next WOG cycle "just for the heck of it".

I think you are mixing up two things:

• the selection of the candidate cities, which is made by the IOC Executive Board based on a technical evalution by a college of experts,
  
• the election of the host city itself, which is based on a mix of techncal, geopolitics, sentimental... factors
  

Hosting the Games is much much more than having sporting venues. The Games put extraordinary pressure on a city transport and accommodation infrastructures. These two points are Rio's weak points.

To suggest that Rio and Chicago are the only definites is ignoring the fact that Chicago, Tokyo and Madrid to not play in the same league as Rio: there is absolutely no doubt that Chicago, Tokyo and Madrid will top the applicant cities evaluation report while making the shortlist will be more difficult for Rio.

It doesn't mean much about what city will be the eventual host (the city that was ranked first in the applicant cities report has never won) and, should Rio be a candidate city, it should indeed be one of the favourites.