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Posts posted by Nacre

  1. On 9/14/2019 at 7:28 PM, Alexjc said:

    Got a feeling that 2030 will be the last Games...They have so fallen into irrelevance that no one cares anymore. 

    Does it still matter to the athletes and the host cities? The various continental games get little television coverage, but they do matter a great deal to the athletes (especially for athletes in the sports with Olympic qualification on the line) and to the host city. And that's all that is really needed for these events to survive. That said, Olympic qualification is an enormous advantage for the continental games over the Commonwealth Games in ensuring athlete interest.

  2. 19 hours ago, yoshi said:

    Couldn’t you make use of a Perth type stadium to replace the Gabba? 60000 Aussies in a brand new Brisbane stadium would make a pretty intimidating place to start the Ashes...

    Brisbane Lions average 27,511 fans/match

    Brisbane Heat average 22,343

    Gold Coast Suns average 19,810

    Brisbane Roar average 9,632

    Sure, the stadium would sell out when Brisbane hosted a major international competition, but how often will that happen? The local sports teams only need 25,000-40,000 seats, and Brisbane already has two stadiums for that role.

  3. Even a 60,000 seat stadium would still be very costly, however. Presumably it wouldn't be as expensive as Optus Stadium's $1.6 billion AU cost. Temporary stadiums have cost 1/2 to 2/3rds the cost of permanent structures at previous Olympics. (See London's water polo and basketball arenas, for example.) But even half of the cost of Perth's stadium would be $800 million AU for the sake of a 17 day event with no obvious long term use, as none of the sports teams in Queensland need a 60,000 seat venue. 

    On the flip side if Brisbane can pull this off without any white elephants left after the circus has packed up and left, then it would genuinely show the IOC has changed. And it would also be a monumental achievement for Brisbane and Queensland.

  4. It's not just NBC. The calendars of every summer Olympic sport would have to be torn up and adjusted, and that would be a massive disruption. And it would be an even bigger problem for team sports as the IOC has either very indirect control or no control at all over the various sports leagues around the world.

    • Like 1

  5. This whole approach seems crazy to me. Brisbane and Queensland should be thinking about what works for them and then seeing how that could work for an Olympic bid rather than making the "best bid ever" and then trying to figure out the legacy afterwards. But maybe I don't understand the Australian point of view.

    • Like 1

  6. On 8/29/2019 at 11:22 AM, Tulsa said:

    To host speed skating you need an athletics track who can be transform in a temporary ice track.

    Speed skating rinks are different dimensions from athletics stadiums. It is possible to put a temporary rink inside an athletics stadium, but there is a very large distance from the stands to the ice.


  7. On 8/16/2019 at 3:52 PM, stryker said:

     Did the Sydney Olympic Park Athletic Centre serve as the warm up athletics track for the Sydney Olympics?

    I think it partially did, along with a third track. But our Australian posters would likely know more than I do.

    I do think the original London model of a permanent lower bowl and a temporary upper bowl might work, but it's never been done before and it would still leave a bigger than needed stadium. Community athletics in Brisbane shouldn't need any more than 1,000-2,000 seats, whereas the seating capacity of a full lower bowl would be at least 15,000.  So even that optimistic plan would force grassroot athletics in Queensland to maintain a stadium ten times the capacity it actually needs.

    The option that would definitely not leave behind a white elephant would be a cricket/AFL stadium of 30,000 permanent seats and 30,000+ temporary seats. But Brisbane already has Brisbane Cricket Ground and Carrara Stadium for that purpose.

  8. 11 hours ago, stryker said:

     How many community sports centres does the Brisbane metro area actually need and community sports centres are not exactly known for turning in profits unless you have permanent tenant. Seems like they'd bleed money post-Olympics. 

    Things like public parks and recreational facilities generally lose money, but indirectly generate revenue through increased property values. Urban communities need public sports facilities for people to use for exercise and living in an area with good recreational facilities is more attractive, thus increasing real estate prices. To wit, the area around the Queen Elizabeth Park in London has seen a significant increase in property values since the development of the park. (Of course, that will in turn lead to complaints about gentrification.)

    The concern is that the Olympics -and high profile sporting events generally- have generally struggled to produce community-based facilities. The technical requirements for Olympic venues and the requirements for community facilities are very dissimilar. Sydney Olympic Park Athletic Centre is a pretty good example of a grassroots dedicated athletic center. But I don't think there's any way it could have been temporarily expanded into an Olympic Stadium.

  9. I just don't understand how Brisbane can support Olympic facilities post-games. Queensland has a population smaller than Minnesota (over an area eight times larger), and Brisbane's metro area population is analogous to that of Minneapolis. And don't be fooled by overall pop numbers. Athens has a population density of 17,000 residents per square kilometer for the urban area and about 7,500 over its metro area while Brisbane has 145 residents per square kilometer

    We've seen in the past what happens when cities build stadiums for the World Cup or Olympics and then consider the needs of local sports teams afterwards. None of the teams in Brisbane need a 60,000 seat Olympic Stadium, or a 15,000 seat arena.

  10. 16 hours ago, panamfan said:

    It always burns me up that US television does not promote the Pan Am Games at all. They spend zilch on adverstising and then whine that the ratings are 0.1. Well, Duh! People can't watch if they don't know to tune in. ESPN waited until 2 days before the coverage started to announce their plans. Hard to build interest that way.

    1) I agree.

    2) The Pan-American Games are great in part precisely because they are not a massive television spectacle and corporate investment opportunity.

    There isn't enough money in the event for massive amounts of money to be thrown around, so the sporting federations are forced to settle for facilities that make sense for local communities. That's exactly what they should be doing anyway. I would never want Seattle to host the Olympics but rebuilding West Seattle Stadium, the King County Aquatics Center, the equestrian arenas at Bridle Trails State Park, the Jerry Baker Velodrome, et al to Pan-American Games standards would be a fine use of public money that would provide upgraded facilities for the amateur athletes of the Seattle area. Just like Toronto built sub-Olympic facilities for their 2015 games that are nonetheless great for Canadian athletes to use in training.

    The Pan-Ams don't attract throngs of international tourists or television viewers. They only really matter to the people living in the host city, the athletes and their families, and dedicated fans of the sports in question. And those are the people who should really matter. 

  11. It's not so much an issue with either the quality or the quantity of venues, but requiring cities to have BOTH quality and quantity. There are plenty of sliding centers, speed skating rinks, et al to support the winter Olympics. They just happen to be spread out in many different cities. So the IOC is going to be faced with a lot more bids like Sweden+Latvia and Poland+Slovakia.

  12. 10 hours ago, Smitty said:

    Why do officials need to move intra-day between venues? How much does this happen? One of the best parts of the games for spectators  is being able to see multiple events in the same day but this may be one of the things that is flexed. (This is a reason to have biathlon at maybe curling in Östersund, to create variety within cluster.) The main IF this affects is FIS, which has close to half the winter events. Anyway, this is still possible with internal flights, which will be an inevitable part of a Swedish games (though the bid book was silent on this).

    The Olympics are basically a massive get together for world sporting figures, and there are lots of meetings and events planned outside of competition. For example Dutch skiing officials want to go to the Holland Heineken House, see their speed skating athletes compete, meet with other people in their NOC, talk with the media, etc. Do they need to do this stuff? No. But it is a major part of the Olympics.

    Keep in mind that winter sports people affiliated with NOC's historically resisted switching to a separate mountain and city villages because it would make it a lot harder for skiers and ice skaters to have sex during the games like they normally did. And no, I am not joking.

    • Haha 1

  13. 4 hours ago, Smitty said:

    I think that you're overestimating mobility needs. Anyone entitled to a T1 car will likely get a helicopter at quick disposal if they wanted, as the Russians provided (though wasn't much used in practice) in Sochi. Just as a football world cup--and Euro 2020--means long distance trains or internal flights, so the recent changes enable a more spread out plan. 

    The difference is that there are far fewer events (both sports and non-sporting) at the World Cup than at the Olympics. Officials at the World Cup generally do not fly between multiple host cities in the same day.

    Adler to Krasnaya Polyana is only 41 km. It was practical for officials to attend competitions at Krasnaya Polyana, a press event in Adler and national team parties and meetings in Sochi all in the same day. Stockholm to Are is >600km, and it would not be practical for officials to shuttle back and forth between them multiple times in the same day. So it is a real logistical problem. It probably isn't insoluble but it would take public support and financing from Sweden, and willingness to give up some of their events from the sporting federations and national teams. And unfortunately neither side was willing or able to do that.

  14. 2 hours ago, yoshi said:

    I think the point he’s making is that the IOC moved heaven & earth to keep Stockholm in. 

    Exactly. The Swedish bid was very weak, but the IOC needed to keep it alive and the SOK gamely went along with it. I don't think you can blame a NOC itself for being willing to bid if the IOC publicly states multiple times that they are willing to accept a low cost games with mostly private funding. 

    And in the end I can't even really blame the IOC's members for not wanting a spread out games requiring ferry rides, night trains or whatever to get around, and for not wanting to wait in limbo to see if the Swedish public and government would pull the rug from under their feet like Denver did.

    I think the only fair criticism is to say the IOC shouldn't have been disingenuous with the Swedes, and should have been clearer about what they wanted rather than paying constant lip service to "Agenda 2020."

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  15. On 6/25/2019 at 4:42 AM, baron-pierreIV said:

    Sweden should just stick to their Nobel prizes.  With all their wealth, they could't even manage a decent Olympic bid.  

    Sweden is wealthy because it is smart enough not to throw money away on vanity projects. The Swiss government isn't rushing to put in a bid either. (Although I wonder if the IOC will eventually threaten to leave the country if they don't.)

  16. 57 minutes ago, Quaker2001 said:

    Are has hosted a World Alpine Championships before.  Pretty sure they could figure out hosting the Alpine events from an Olympics without busing everyone from Stockholm

    The Olympics have way more VIP's, NOC officials, media personnel, corporate sponsors, fans, etc. It's not taking care of the athletes and the competition that is the problem, it is the various hangers-on that are problematic.

  17. 6 minutes ago, baron-pierreIV said:

    But you're assuming that volunteers in these situations you mention have to go back home to their distant point of origin.  I don't think any responsible OCOG would allow or foster that.  It would be highly irresponsible for them to do so.  I am sure volunteers , for a well-planned Games, are encouraged to shack up/ find shared housing close by for their duties.  

    The problem is that there simply isn't much housing to share at Are as the entire town has a population of 1,400. In comparison Whistler has a population of 12,000 yet most of the volunteers still had to be bused in from the Vancouver metro area. 

    I suppose they could set up tents, but it would be rather cold . . .

  18. 1 hour ago, ofan said:

    Using Malmo is disingenuous, as it's about a 6.5 hour drive from Stockholm. 20% of Sweden's population lives in the greater Stockholm area, I'm sure most of the volunteers would have come from there. The real issue would be assigning people to Are where there's far less infrastructure in place.  

    It would still be rather awful for people from Stockholm.

    At Vancouver 2010 volunteers had to meet very early in the morning at a transit site to get picked up by a bus and then go to Whistler. And they might make you wait there until midnight. And Whistler was only a two hour bus ride from Vancouver.

    For volunteers from Uppsala the equivalent would be driving an hour to a meeting point in Stockholm an hour before time to wait for a bus and go over your responsibilities, then take a 10 hour bus ride to Are, then work there for >8 hours, then take a 10 hour bus ride home, and then driving an hour back home. That's more than 30 hours in one "day" of volunteering.

    I am not saying that the Swedish bid was unworkable. But it would have been very challenging even with strong government support. With very little government support I think it was a longshot.

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