FYI

You're twisting things, faster. I never made any "grossly overstated & inaccurate accusations" against Turkey. Go back & read the thread again. What I said was to a much "lesser degree". I know that Turkey is not nearly as bad as China & something I iterated & that even Ahmet agreed with. I also know that Turkey is the most moderate, secular & liberal country in the Muslim world (I don't need you to tell me that), but it's still not on par with the other Western European nations (even the E.U. has stated that Turkey needs to fix some issues before their E.U. application can progress). That's all I said & then you come up with your word twisting. You're something else.

For the 3rd time, the U.S. does not oppress it's OWN people the grotesque way China does, that's the issue & that's what all the protests are all about. Let's take Turkey out of it for the moment, cuz that's all you seem to be focusing on. The two governments are hardly comparable.

Wonder how Buenos Aires is going to handle their Relay. Any word yet how Canberra is going to handle theirs & how many demonstrators are expected?

Sorry if I misunderstood your post then.

It wasn't me who made the initial statement, it was Guardian. The only one getting "hysterical" about is you with your abrasive post.

I know, I heard that too. That's why one shouldn't believe evertyhing that they hear on the news. London 2012 has already said that they are strongly committed to a domestic relay, just they international portion is the one in question.

I agree with Davey. This is China's moment to shine & they don't want anything to go wrong or be embarassed &/or anyone to embarass them. They're not gonna forget which countries might embarass them during these Games & will pay them back in one way or another, that being political, economical or otherwise. The Chinese have a lot of cards to play with nowadays & they'll them deal them out in the appropiate fashion as they would see it.

They're talking about eliminating the international portion, but there'll always be a domestic leg.

Expect tit-for-tat in London in 2012 from the Chinese.

Yes, I understand what you meant, but then you brought up the U.S. (& Argentina), which again don't treat their very own citizens as grossly as China (& to a lesser degree, Turkey), which really is what everyone is in protest of.

Exactly. I think that many people are confusing the two, & therefore think that somehow this jeopardizes the Olympic movement. The Olympics have survived much worse than this. If anything, all this is, is a big pot-hole down the Olympic Road.

The major difference though is how China (& to a lesser degree, Turkey) treat their *own* citizens. Deflecting the subject doesn't change that fact.

"But it is not the governments that are protesting. It is individual citizens and activists." I realize that it's citizens. Exactly the point. Why criticise a 'foreign' government about HR's, when you need to start with your own government first. How can someone teach you something when they themselves are still learning too.

I'm not saying that they are responsible, but why criticise the "injustices" of another country's actions when their own house isn't exactly in order either. That's what I meant. Like that old saying goes; "you must take care of yourself first before you can take care of someone else".

Many observers are probably acting like this since this is the first time they've seen protests like this for recent Games, but it's certainly not like it's something new that the Olympic movement hasn't seen before. The Olympic Games has survived, boycotts, previous protests, scandals, deadly terrorists attacks & it'll certainly survive this. So the movement isn't going to be 'tarnished' too much by this. This might be a lesson for the IOC, but not it's detriment like some are trying to paint it as so. After San Francisco (where Richard Gere is going to be involved, go figure), things should quiet down significantly. Buenos Aires might be a little noisy (but should be like Istanbul) with minor incidences. The only other stops that could get roudy are Canberra & probably New Delhi & Nagano.

The Japanese leg of the Relay is in Nagano not Tokyo. So probably won't be as bad then.

You're comparing China's Human Rights abuses to countries in South America or South Africa? Okay.

Meaning that Turkey isn't exactly the poster child for Human Rights. Granted, Turkey's record isn't nearly as bad as China's, but they're not on par with the other major Western Democracies either. It's kinda like the people telling Bush that he should boycott the opening ceremonies. By him heeding those suggestions would only make him a hypocrite. He's the last person that would need to open his mouth or trying to make a statement about Human Rights by not going to Beijing.

I can't even believe that anyone would even suggest that the protests in Paris had to do with their Olympic bid loses! How ludicrous! That's my laugh for the day!

The IOC needs to relax & wait & see once the Torch leaves the Americas from Buenos Aires this weekend on it's route to Africa then Asia. All these people that are saying that the relay is just going to get worse the longer the relay goes on are just overreacting like the IOC is doing now. London, Paris, San Francisco & Buesnos Aires are major Western cities with full democracies where people can protest almost whenever they see "fit". Again, hardly anything was heard about from Almaty & St. Petersburg & "some" incidences from Istanbul (like they have any room to talk anyway). So let's wait & see once it leaves the Western Hemishepere. If things still continue they way they are (which seem unlikely), then can cancellation should be brought about. But if things die down or at the very least calm down, then let the relay continue. The only real bumpy road that we would see again is Canberra on the 24th.

Guess we'll find out in 2012 since the U.K. is a staunch ally of the U.S. And that's if U.K. organiziners don't scrap the Int. relay. Maybe they think they'll get protesters for that very reason & why they're considering to axe it.

London was a "savior" for 1908 too, since those Games were originally awarded to Rome, but Italy gave them up to handle their large natural disaster in Naples when Mt Vesuvius arupted in 1906.

What perfect host nation for the IOC to start experimenting "internationally" then.

To many, George Bush is probably the last person who should be preaching about Human Rights. And Hillary & Obama should just shut the pieholes when the USOC has a bid in place.

I thought of the Japanese, but it's hard to view them as very aggressive people at times. lol Nagano probably won't be anything of the scale like London or Paris, but protests nonetheless.