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gromit

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Posts posted by gromit

  1. I've seen it before. There have been a number of comments since, most recently in 15 November 2012 by Denis Masseglia of the FOC.

    It does seem that Paris is waiting to see who else will throw their hat into the ring as well as the outcome of 7 September.

    I think if Tokyo get the award then Paris are in, Istanbul and it is 50/50 and Madrid rules them out. I do think that Paris are more fearful of Africa than the USA as contenders.

    Meanwhile as a venue, they are slowly building up a number of appropriate world class venues including a new Velodrome, a new Aquatics centre, a new rowing/kayaking facility etc as well as having a sizeable area of land to the South West of the SoF vacant (Olympic Village??)

    Add to this, the Stade de France, upgrades to a number of football and rugby venues including the Parc des Princes, and Roland Garros and the building of a new retractable roof 82,000 seat stadium by the FFR and I think Paris are waiting to launch with a huge BANG!! trying to blow other contenders away


    http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=PR20myJn8vE

  2. /\/\ There will be no clash of sponsors. The cold medicines and ski boots that complement and pay for the WOG telecasts will not advertise in the one-sport WC. So it's OK to uproot the winter sports federations but NOT to upset the Football leagues?? Tell that to the ISU and the ski federations.

    The IOC is NOT going to blink. The IOC is not going to change the WOG calendar for ANOTHEr event. It's FIFA's mess; they have to find a way out.

    U're whistling Dixie if u think the WOGs will budge.

    What??

    Those amounts are puny .... it is the global corporations like VISA, Audi, Samsung etc where the real sponsorship money comes from including the TV companies bidding for rights who will want to attract large corporate advertisers, not cold remedy and ski boot manufacturers

    Well, NZ had better move snappily if they want to get their application in before the deadline later this year. Considering there's no peeps from them, and I doubt the locals would see bidding for the WOGs as a priority as they rebuild from the quake, I'd doubt they'd be able to get a bid going from scratch in the few months left to them.

    Well at the moment it looks like Almaty 2022

  3. But it will run smack into the Winter Games which normally start Feb 7. I suppose if the WC Games started around Jan 3...but that would mean that the 32 teams would be spending Xmas and New Year's already in Qatar. And the IOC will not budge for the WC becuze the WOGs are weather-dependent and they've always held on to that Feb 7 - 24 period. Tough that FIFA didn't set their calendar right the first time.

    and FIFA will say 'so what?' - football is worth far more globally than the WOG and sponsors may decide to go with FIFA.

    Therefore the IOC MAY look at any southern hemisphere bid

    1. the snow season can extend to mid-October which is just before the FIS season starts and the skiers are at the end of winter training so will be fully fit to go

    2. the chosen location will have excellent facilities at their location which at the very least will be used as 'training camps' for a majority of athletes out of season so the issue of post games use and legacy could be far less problematic than thought.

    3. As 2022 is looking pretty marginal in terms of known contenders, it opens up an entire hemisphere as a future bid contender.

    If Qatar goes ahead in Winter, then it will clash with the IOC Winter Games unless these are moving back to October/November

  4. if they're shifting it, Qatar 2022 would happen in Nov-Dec 2022 not in February when the 2022 WOG would happen. So there really wouldn't be any conflict. THey would be ten months apart.

    Based on what evidence?

    1. If they push it back to then it competes with the qualifying for Euro 2024 which starts in August/September 2022 ... and there is no way that UEFA will accept that nor any of the European federations as they will face releasing players for internationals in season immediately before a major football tournament

    The only way to avoid this massive fixture pile up would be to bring the games forward to the first part of 2022.

    2. Furthermore it seems foolish to look the play the games in November when average temperatures are 29 - the coolest period is January and February where temperatures are a more manageable 22 - 23 celcius

    3. It should also be noted that to avoid massive disruption to European leagues the most obvious time to do this would be during the 'Winter breaks' that some European leagues have such as the Bundesliga (Germany) and Ligue 1 (France). These occur between mid-December and the end of January .... a slide move will take this to within a couple of weeks of any WOG

  5. NO that is not simple, as NZL has said they don;t have the capability of hosting the WOG.

    If they rebuild Christchurch there may be ample opportunity

    There is talk of a new football stadium - if uncovered then you've got a ceremonies venue, if covered i.e. multipurpose then it potentially could be a large temporary indoor arena in a similar vein to the Forsyth Barr stadium in Dunedin (Large Hockey Venue)

    The convention centre was demolished. A new one could be the location for speed skating

    The CBS Arena is still standing. (Smaller Hockey Venue)

    Both Sochi and Pyeongchang have got one venue which will be relocated somewhere else in the country. (Figure Skating)

    A small curling arena could be a good location for the local ice hockey team

    Outside you've got the possibility of Mt Hutt, Porter Heights or even Craigeburn holding the Alpine/Outdoor events.

    New Zealand would be a perfect venue for a ski jumping hill because at present, ski jumpers practise/compete on grass/mats so a proper snow venue would be perfect and well supported post games. As a number of bob runs are closing after the games, it would not surprise me if a temporary design is used for this and future games - or provide the sport with a southern hemisphere bob/sliding facility.

    And don't forget that Christchurch for a city of its size has already held numerous international sports events including multi sport games and has an international airport on the edge of the city.

  6. Potentially a more troubling scenario is approval by FIFA for Qatar 2022 to be held in the Winter months. If it is held close to the usual dates for the Winter Olympics then it might have a serious impact.

    Could cities be holding off to see the outcome of FIFA's decision? Oslo estimate a games could cost $5.2bn ... even Stockholm are saying $2.3bn which is a lot of money if a competition is competing for fans and sponsorship money.

    Could the IOC decide to shift the dates of the Winter Olympics? Rogge has said there are 'no plans to' ... which suggests that it has been discussed.

    If the dates were shifted to the early autumn, could this bring a Southern Hemisphere bid into play? For example, the 2014 FIS season will start in Solden on 27th October - the Mt Hutt, New Zealand ski season has been extended to 13th October due to good quality and abundant snow.

  7. I find it kind of depressing that a country like Switzerland with its natural features, sporting heritage and infrastructure can't get its act together to go for the real thing. I get the situation with having to hold a cantonal referendum but it seems such a waste.

    Lausanne would've made a great location for a bid - in the middle of a bid spanning the shores of Lake Geneva from Geneva to Aigle

  8. An interesting design out there that could be used by Toronto is that of KSS/Farshid Moussavi Architects for their entry into the Japan National Stadium in Tokyo

    Here both the stands and the ends of the building move to create a rugby/football/athletics venue without compromising any viewing. The seats, stands and pitch can all move providing a remarkable legacy - if the capacity can be downsized from say 80,000 seats to 40,000 seats then it would be a great home for the Argonauts but allow Toronto to easily host future events such as the Commonwealths, World Athletics Championships and be easy to convert to a future NFL team

    http://www.kssgroup.com/projects/japan-national-stadium.php

    • Like 2
  9. Or they can have hockey one at the Allianz Arena if they want to be crazy.

    The Allianz is owned by Bayern Munich and I very much doubt they'd give up the stadium for either Bundesliga or Champions League games.

    A redeveloped Grunwalder stadium potentially developed for 1860 Munich might hold interest if publically owned

  10. Realistically Munich is the one location that could offer a compact(ish) bid and could do so with less investment. Even Oslo would need to build arenas to meet the minimum arena capacities. For Munich the following is already in place:

    Ski Jumping Hills: Garmisch

    Bobsleigh: Schonau au Kongisee

    Biathalon: Ruhpolding

    Speed Skating: Inzell Arena

    Figure Skating: OlympiaHalle

    Ice Hockey2: Eisstadion am Gutenbergweg, Landshut (73km to NE of Munich) used by Landshut Cannibals

    Curling: Garmisch Olympia Stadium

    Ceremonies: Olympic Stadium

    All that would need to be built would be the Ice Hockey 1 arena .... and this could be done by either expanding the Olympia Eishalle from its current size of 6,250 seats or replace the arena on the same site, with EHC Munich of the DEL playing at the OlympiaHalle in the meantime

    For Munich it is the cost of one arena with a tenant already there to use post games.

    It would extended the bid, but it would still be much smaller than Oslo if they plan to use Kvitfjell and Lillehammer and much less than Stockholm/Are



    Agreed. With right hands and minds, the Olympics can be a potential inverstment -Barcelona, Sydney, London-. But in most cases we have white elephants

    If you look at London, even though there was a scare about the Olympic Stadium which they should have built along the lines of Stade de France from the outset, with the idea of a 60,000 seat venue post games for a football club to use but with athletics capacity, realistically London has not had any white elephants.

    The Copper Box already has tenants (London Lions BBL) whilst although the temporary Basketball Arena has not quite worked as initially thought, I don't think it has left a legacy problem. Ironically both Sochi and Pyeongchang are using temporary arenas for Ice Hockey.

  11. Gromit, just because we haven't mentioned every possible bidder in every post doesn't mean we're forgetting someone.

    The reality is that Bubka and the Ukraine seem to be raring to go whereas Barcelona is still very hypothetical and it seems very unlikely that the Spaniards would back a second Castillian Games.

    There is a fly in the ointment for a Ukraine bid though.

    The Mountain.

    Admittedly it is not quite of the same proportions as Finland but I don't believe they have a mountain even close to the 800m vertical. Unless FIS are suddenly going to agree to race the Mens Downhill with a 450-500m vertical????

  12. Munich offers a very comprehensive package with sustainability in a dramatic setting, along with the nostalgia value of being the first city to ever host both Summer & Winter Games. Ostersund would have to justify how they would make use of new venues & infrastructure in a very vast area post Games.

    And many are already citing that if Munich were to bid that 2022 is theirs to lose. And I don't think that Ostersund could bank on any sympathy votes, since Munich would also have that aspect on their side, if not moreso, after they got seriously defeated with their sound 2018 bid. The only way I could see Ostersund be competitive is if Munich doesn't bid. And if the Swedish government finally decides to give the financial backing the bid requires. Which ATM, they're not willing to do.

    Oh I agree

    But compared to the total nonsense of including Stockholm which I thought was an April Fools joke when I heard it, at least Ostersund might have an outside chance

  13. What's extremely interesing here, is that the people that cite a Stockholm/Are bid would be a no-go bcuz the competition would have much better, more compact bids, are the same ones that say a smaller Ostersund bid would be the sole savior of the SOC.

    The truth here is, that the Swedes really are finding themselves in quite a bit of a conundrum, since Ostersund would also have to face those same much better, more compact bids from the likes of Munich & Oslo. So how is Ostersund the answer. And just like Stockholm/Are, the only way Ostersund could host a much larger, 21st Century Olympics, is if no one else shows up to the IOC 2022 voting table.

    I am not sure that Munich would be that much more compact as Schonau is 149km to the South East, Garmisch is 90km to the South West and Garmsich to Schonau is 197km a triangle in shape

    Ostersund is slightly different but would attract votes from those members who like a smaller more traditional bid. Ostersund might also attract the sympathy vote from those who recognise many previous bids and there's always the chance other contenders will suffer from foot in mouth disease. As it is Stockholm-Are has zero chance .... at least Ostersund could be competitive.

    • Like 1
  14. Sweden can easily host a Winter Olympics based around Ostersund.

    • It is a university down so any village could be used by students post games or part turned into affordable housing
    • It has hosted World Championships so will be known to many Winter Sports federations
    • It has a world class ski resort within 100km of Ostersund at Are
    • It already has some facilities in place such as a modern biathlon venue
    • There is a 120m ski jump hill at Solleftea which is 164km from Ostersund which the IOC might stretch to or a 97m hill at Hede which could be upgraded and is within 143km
    • Sweden's only bobsleigh track, the natural run at Hammarstrand is 97km from Ostersund, and could be reopened and upgraded more cheaply than building from scratch
    • We have already seen many bids over temporary 50,000 seat stadiums for the ceremonies. Why couldn't Ostersund, build a stadium like the HypoArena in Klagenfurt which had 32,000 seats for Euro2008 but could have been reduced to 12,000 seats after the games?
    • It has an airport capable of landing larger aircraft
    • London 2012 showed it was possible to build a temporary 12,000 seat arena. Why couldn't Ostersund do the following?:
    1. A 3,000 seat permanent arena (curling) to be used post games by Ostersund Ice Hockey
    2. A 6,000 seat permanent area (Hockey2) to be used post games by Jamtland basket
    3. A 8,000 seat speed skating arena for the national team or converted into community/university use like the Richmond Oval
    4. A 10,000 seat temporary arena (Hockey1) to be relocated post games
    5. A 12,000 seat temporary arena (Hockey2) to be relocated post games

    With support from central government, this might be an exceptionally competitive bid, providing the legacy the IOC likes but no white elephants and generating considerable sympathy from IOC members but somehow the SOC think the lunacy of trying to host a games with 4x the distance between venues is more likely to work. It is ridiculous and anti-spectator in its concept

    Yes ... a Freudian slip

    Though the Sion 2006 bid had 3 ice hockey venues at Martigny, Sierre and Visp

  15. Sweden can easily host a Winter Olympics based around Ostersund.

    • It is a university down so any village could be used by students post games or part turned into affordable housing
    • It has hosted World Championships so will be known to many Winter Sports federations
    • It has a world class ski resort within 100km of Ostersund at Are
    • It already has some facilities in place such as a modern biathlon venue
    • There is a 120m ski jump hill at Solleftea which is 164km from Ostersund which the IOC might stretch to or a 97m hill at Hede which could be upgraded and is within 143km
    • Sweden's only bobsleigh track, the natural run at Hammarstrand is 97km from Ostersund, and could be reopened and upgraded more cheaply than building from scratch
    • We have already seen many bids over temporary 50,000 seat stadiums for the ceremonies. Why couldn't Ostersund, build a stadium like the HypoArena in Klagenfurt which had 32,000 seats for Euro2008 but could have been reduced to 12,000 seats after the games?
    • It has an airport capable of landing larger aircraft
    • London 2012 showed it was possible to build a temporary 12,000 seat arena. Why couldn't Ostersund do the following?:
    1. A 3,000 seat permanent arena (curling) to be used post games by Ostersund Ice Hockey
    2. A 6,000 seat permanent area (Hockey2) to be used post games by Jamtland basket
    3. A 8,000 seat speed skating arena for the national team or converted into community/university use like the Richmond Oval
    4. A 10,000 seat temporary arena (Hockey1) to be relocated post games
    5. A 12,000 seat temporary arena (Hockey2) to be relocated post games

    With support from central government, this might be an exceptionally competitive bid, providing the legacy the IOC likes but no white elephants and generating considerable sympathy from IOC members but somehow the SOC think the lunacy of trying to host a games with 4x the distance between venues is more likely to work. It is ridiculous and anti-spectator in its concept

  16. lol if you can't provide a minimum requirement venue you can't host. Sweden can provide the venue but at a great distance. There is a difference.

    Yes they can host technically host a Winter Games

    but at such distance and making it so difficult for spectators to attend that it would go against the Olympic spirit and ethos.

    So Sweden can host but ONLY with a bid centres around Ostersund

  17. So you mean they are lying? (SOC)

    No, they have read between the lines and come up with 2+2 = 7

    Is Jacques Rogge lying when he says that 240km between venues is impossible for a Winter Olympics bid???

    The only way a Stockholm/Are bid will win is if every other major contender drops out like in Euro 2020

    and even then UEFA didn't go with the Turkey bid

  18. I may have said it before, but Quebec's 2002 bid was beaten not only by lack of mountain or bid scandals. But by aging venues.

    Salt Lake City was building new venues and had a modern arena at the time of bidding, Quebec had venues yes, but nothing new and modern, just old and to be renovated.

    But that's not the issue of course. I think Alpine Skiing is the crown, just look at all the events that are in it, that and Figure Skating (which supposedly warrants a larger venue than even Ice Hockey).

    Aging venues can be updated

    Finding a mountain with 800m vertical within 150km which has sufficient difficulty is not as easy

  19. I don't see alpine skiing as crown jewel either.

    Your opinion is irrelevant. The FIS who are one of the key drivers behind the IOC Winter Games says it is.

    Take Quebec City who has a bid which is excellent and compact. Their main mountain is not quite big enough, and the mountain which is, is not difficult enough for the mens' race.

    The outcome is ..... Quebec City's bid gets rejected

    Which clearly shows the importance of this race to the entire games

    • Like 1
  20. and what about equestrian and sailing then? There many different events of them too. But still China was allowed to host them 2000km and 670km away from Bejing. What's the different to Alpine events being hosted in Åre?

    Do you not understand the difference between SUMMER and WINTER??

    As you have been told 20 times now there is a difference in the IOC charter itself when it comes to bidding for these games .... how long will it take for you to understand this??

    Can you provide one single example when there has been a distance of over 150km between sporting events at a WINTER OLYMPICS?????

    "...The conditions are, it is today possible, even the mildest winter, arranging all sports in the Winter Olympics and Paralympics in Stockholm. But the alpine speed streams can only Åre cope.

    International Olympic Committee now accept such a division, or even to cross the border to another country if necessary to gain access to the mountains.

    ..."

    (google translated so plz excuse the bad translation)

    from here;

    http://translate.goo...625de64f7f.html

    Not according to the actual document laying out how bids are presented or the actual words from the IOC including Jacques Rogge who is on record as saying the distance between Oslo and Lillehammer is too far

    Barcelona to La Molina is 150km

    Munich to Garmisch is 100km

    Both bids will be accept before the ludicrous 600km between Are and Stockholm. But if the Swedes wish to waste money on a bid doomed to failure, that is the Swedes prerogative.

    • Like 1
  21. still it is just one sport and usually most spectators do not go and watch every single sport during the Olympics

    or super giant slalom, or giant slalom or slalom

    And it makes no sense trying to build the bobsleigh or ski jumping at Stockholm

    And why not use the world class biathlon venue at Ostersund, as you have to go to Are via Ostersund

    All of a sudden, all the outdoor sports are in Are ..... unless the Swedish government are going to spend all these extra millions for a site in Stockholm

  22. You should visit Stockholm in february before saying we don't have snow. Actually we have snow in MARCH!! Strong hard winters with tempratures down to -10!! In fact in March I was TOTALLY pissed off by the cold winter! Just when we thought the spring would come insted we got more snow. And do you really think Germany and other countries have more snow than Stockhol`m?? I don't think so!

    FYI I have been to Stockholm in February ... as well as March, as well as January, as well as November.

    Munich also gets huge amounts of snow.

    The difference is the outdoor events are held within 100km of Munich, not the ridiculous 600km from Stockholm

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