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Blacksheep

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Posts posted by Blacksheep

  1. Los Angeles would be great if they can

    1) Redevelop the coliseum

    3309_630x440.jpg

    This image shows no running track but if they implemented a bottom tier where the stands could cover the track during USC games, then that would be ideal

    2) Develop the area in the immediate vicinity of the games, to improve it as I understand its pretty run down, including maybe an Olympic Village which could subsequently be used for affordable housing, also creating the LA version of London's Olympic Park but with the main stadium already in place.

    Whether California could afford to do this is another question.

    • Like 1
  2. NO ONE IN THIS THREAD WANTS TO TALK ABOUT THE 1996 ATLANTA OLYMPICS ANY LONGER EXCEPT YOU.

    FALSE

    Someone makes a comment, I respond back

    If someone makes a further comment, I respond further

    If someone responds to that response, I respond again

    Do you see the pattern here?

  3. if everyone in this thread just agrees to agree with you will you please stop?

    i'm not sure how many more pages of you posting the exact same post on the damn bus drivers getting lost we can take.

    i don't think the people who got lost in atlanta suffered as much as we have listening to you talk about it for a week straight. at least that ride came to an end.

    Will you stop sticking your head in the sand, and accept that many independent assessors as well as the IOC have said the same thing time and time again?

    You make a statement based on comment .... you then get told that person is not good enough ... then get told to find another comment

    Here you go just for your deluded little world

    "ATLANTA 1996 was the GREATEST BESTEST EVER GAMES OF ALL TIME - NOTHING AT ALL WENT WRONG, IT WAS IN FACT BETTER THAN PERFECT"

    It is in fact a massive set up by the jealous and anti-American IOC, encouraged by the marxist and muslim President Obama, who wasn't even born in the USA, so should be president?

    Does this set better in your world Krow?

    p.s # Shouldn't be President

    It's useless. This blacksheep character thrives on misinformed, sweeping generalisations to make lopsided point after lopsided point. I've switched off.

    Pot calling the kettle black

    Misinformed comments - that would be direct quotes from IOC Members including VP Richard Pound

    Sweeping Generalisations - with specific quotes and links to those individuals making those comments.

    Find me quotes apart from ACOG members who are well informed that have said the opposite?

    The GreenandBlue character seems to prefer living in a world where they can remain ignorant and uninformed

  4. Before or after the successful Rugby World Cup 2011?

    A bid centred on Christchurch using Mt Hutt and Porter Heights and some of the new stadia/arenas being constructed would not be exceptionally taxing.

    The idea of using Wanaka/Queenstown is - they are simply not big enough especially as the only possible location with the required vertical is Treble Cone in vertical and it would take a massive undertaking to get that access road ready for any event.

    Mt Hutt is far easier to develop as is Porter Heights.

  5. Sheep, I do think Atlanta made mistakes, but the above is a GROSS overstatement. It's so extreme that it makes it difficult to absorb some of your more valid points.

    With all due respect Athens, when events are at risk of being delayed or cancelled from their start time because the athletes have only just shown up, what term would you describe it as?

  6. I take it this is the minority on this board, but the fact that the Atlanta Games were privately funded and organized is considered a positive thing. You simply are not going to get an Olympic Games in the US that is centrally run and coordinated by a government (whether state or Federal) like even just happened in London.

    The US Olympic team isn't tax payer funded, we have no silly, make work government job like "Minister of Sport", and we privately organize and fund major events like the Olympics.

    I hear the complaints about over commercialism. Could someone explain what that means? Is a complaint ACOG and the city did not coordinate as much as they should (largely the city's fault, not ACOG)? Or is it a complaint that Atlanta chose to privately fund the games rather than place a burden on the taxpayers for a generation for a 17 day event? What is the problem?

    Carolina

    The problem is not so much whether spectators found it great or whether there was a good legacy.

    It was that the IOC felt that throughout the 17days they were lurching from potential disaster to potential disaster - from the transportation system meaning athletes barely arrived on time for their events, to the IT system which apparently crashed every day to bus drivers still getting lost well into the second week

    The issue was not so much that it was privately funded, but that the ACOG underestimated how much money they would raise and at the 11th hour had the begging bowl out trying to scrimp together as much as they could. That is why the IOC insist that there is a government pledge to make up any budget shortfall

    As for over-commercialisation, it was because allegedly there was a free for all selling items associated with the Olympics by organisations who had nothing to do with the Olympics. The IOC protect its brand jealously, and for an example in London they cracked down hard on any non-sanctioned merchandise.

    I think that the IOC are happy for a games to be privately funded, but want a guarantee that if the budget massively increases that either state or federal government will step in to cover a shortfall, rather than risk selling the Olympic brand to the highest bidder just to make ends meet.

  7. I'm not sure why you mentioned me. I know you didn't claim Atlanta to be the greatest Games, I never said otherwise.

    I think if I'm being honest, I'm going to place myself in the middle in this debate. A lot of Blacksheep's facts about Atlanta's organisation and subsequent changes for Sydney are indisputible - and indeed the IOC's problems with Atlanta are well documented. However, I would definitely side with you overall because I'd disagree that these problems were large enough to call these Games a "car crash". I agree with Blacksheep's observations, but not his extreme conclusion.

    I hope that's sort of cleared up where I stand on Atlanta anyway. It was a Games I enjoyed on a small TV screen while on holiday in Devon as a 12 year old kid. It's the first Games I really remember and as such will always be a good Games for me. However, in the context of this forum and this thread, I have to acknowledge the IOC's perception too. I don't think that's unfair.

    What extreme conclusion? I've not said that I personally thought it was a bad games as a spectator. I remember watching Steve Redgrave, and Ben Ainslie and Donovan Bailey as well as the superb Michael Johnson and is 19.32 run in the 200m.

    What I've said is that Atlanta disappointed the IOC not delivering to maybe a too high an expectation and there were a number of problems which they IOC insisted were addressed in future bids. Funding and rigid commercialisation controls were implemented post Atlanta to the benefit of the Olympic movement

    Stick in your head in the sand and pretending this did not occur is not going to help. Most games to the spectator are brilliant, it is the impression that the IOC form which becomes important,

    And I think a future New York, Chicago, LA bid etc, will pay very close attention to make sure the same problems don't occur.

  8. Why certainly. The LA Coliseum has now been around since 1920 - going onto 92 years. In that time, sure the field has been raised and lowered, facilities updated and seating renovated or replaced. But the basic structure is intact - right down to the original 1932 games logo.

    Many other cities have their Olympic stadiums intact. Just a couple that are older than 75 year:

    - 1936 - Garmisch Partenkirchen

    - 1928 - Amsterdam

    In other sports, Chicago has been able to keep the historic Wrigley Field around since 1914.

    London could have retained historic parts of Wembley or the White City Stadium, but responded by demolishing the legacy. If you want to see true architecture of the 1908 or 1948 Games in London, where do you go? In Berlin, Munich, Garmisch, Ingoldstadt, LA, Atlanta, Amsterdam and most Olympic hosts, the stadiums are well-used and tourist drawcards. In London? Nothing.

    THIS IS WRONG - it was discovered that it was architecturally impossible to update Wembley into a modern stadium and retain original features. British posters will confirm that there was a campaign to retain things like the Two Towers but on architectural investigation, it was discovered that the way they were built made it impossible to do so. And it was never built as an Olympic stadium unlike some of the other venues you mention.

    As for White City ... I used to live near there - about half a mile away in Ladbroke Grove. Due to building being built around there, it was impossible to use White City as a stadium because of Health and Safety reasons. You could not safely move people into the stadium. So it was demolished.

    Clearly you are extremely unfamiliar with the parts of London you are talking about.

    And still, other than an allegation, you haven't posted a single fact in support of reports of the day indicated Atlanta was a shambles compared to any other Games. It's clear you have an anti-Atlanta bias with zero facts, other than what you read on Wikipedia and blogs.

    Samaranch said he did not proclaim the Atlanta Games with the usual post- Olympic superlative because of the multitude of problems ranging from transport bottlenecks to technology failures. "I was right by not talking of the `best Games ever'," Samaranch claimed.

    The fact that the IOC actually changed some of the funding rules after the games, the fact the even ACOG admitted there were a number of IT and transport problems that were ongoing from the 1st day to the last ..... exactly how many FACTS do you need. These FACTS are a matter of public record.

  9. If Atlanta biggest flaw was the IOC had to sweat then GREAT! They may have been the "best games ever" after all.

    The event itself was a huge success with NO white elephants, green before "green" was overhyped BS and Atlanta is a Magnificent city that has become even more so since the Olympics.

    One slight problem -

    If the IOC weren't impressed, they are the one group you must impress if you want the Summer Olympics awarded again

  10. And yet, I still see no evidence of this, that the IOC demanded meetings at Atlanta which weren't demanded of any other games. If it's public record, then you shouldn't have a problem pointing to that clear public record of meetings demanded by the IOC at Atlanta, and how those same meetings weren't demanded for any other games.

    Let me be clear, to you and others such as Rob, et al. I'm not claiming Atlanta was "the greatest". It was a highly successful games. There was nothing disastrous or embarrassing about it. To continue trying to paint it as such, simply shows your willingness to believe random wikipedia articles and op eds, as opposed to doing a bit of research.

    Go rent some DVDs and watch Atlanta's ceremonies, it's main events. Go into the newspaper archives and read the daily articles relating to the games written during the two weeks. Then come back with your "public record evidence", and let's see of your sweeping statements hold.

    That the fact that the spectators enjoyed it is not disputed .... or that the ceremonies or events looked good.

    What the International Olympic Committee had to do behind the scenes to represent a respectable games is what they measure - the budget shortfalls, the tacky commercialisation, the appalling transportation of athletes and officials, the chaotic IT system - and this has been recorded by American journalists in details.

    I once organised a conference at a venue, where despite written agreements, the venue failed to deliver in IT support, catering, sound etc ... if anything could have gone wrong it did. My colleagues and I scurried around behind the scenes, and thankfully the delegates weren't aware what was going wrong behind the scenes. After the event, we had to send a report to the CEO, who was so horrified that the venue had failed to deliver to even a minimum standard that my company received a full refund on everything -£15,000+ - as well as a personal apology from the venues managing director. But none of this was known by the delegates or those filming the conference.

    Based on what has been said about Atlanta, whilst superficially it looked great, things happened behind the scenes which left the IOC deeply disappointed.

  11. You're right. London managed to solve this with both their previous games - they demolished the stadium.

    A rather inaccurate comment.

    Wembley in its 1948 form was already 25years old. By 2000, it was 75years old. At a certain point it is physically impossible to keep updating a stadium and rebuild it. The Olympic Stadium of 1948 is still at its exact same location.

    As for the 1908 stadium, it was only demolished after being in existence for 75years, and having all the streets around it developed to the point which hamstrung what the owners could do. Ironically it would have been a great site for the proposed QPR stadium.

    If the USA winning city plan to build an Olympic Stadium and operate it for 75years before demolishing it, then you've got a valid comparison

    • Like 1
  12. I think it is a little erroneous to use London costs

    1) Building in a 2,000 year old city is always going to add costs to any construction both in terms of sites, and built new transportation links to reach those sites - tunnels are more expensive than overland links as a rule

    2) The London Olympic Park had to be expensively cleaned up before the first brick was laid. This might not be necessarily true of Auckland

    3) Security costs went through the roof both because of size of population, location and political postion of the UK government. It is far easier to restrict entry into NZ, and therefore far easier to police the games at a substantially reduced cost.

  13. There's no official continental rotation, if that were the case, then the US should bid for 2024, given a great opportunity to win.

    How about spending 30 million on a Winter bid for 2022, going against Euro bidders then failing?

    The US should not go to what's considered the consolation games, go for the real deal, the Summer Olympics. You had some Winter glory in 2002.

    because after (west) Europe in 2006 , North America in 2010, (east) Europe in 2014 and Asia in 2018, the next in the loop would likely be in Western Europe.

    I cannot think of a US city that could beat Paris if Paris goes for it in 2024 ... forget the centenery ... Paris has all of the facilities as well as the desired legacy. Only if Madrid win in 2020 will things change, in my opinion

  14. Why should the US go for the lesser Winter Olympics when what's being offered is Reno, Denver (the IOC will surely remember their backing out of hosting 1976) and your proposal of Burlington?

    Go for the Summer games I tells ya, then perhaps if that fails try a Winter games consolation prize.

    Spend $30m going up against some massive big guns - can the US afford another 2012 and 2016 style defeat?

    or less when under continental rotation it is the turn of North America to host 2026?

    • Like 1
  15. I don't think the USA will bid for 2024 but will focus on 2026

    Rio in 2016 would lead to arguments that a games has been held in the same timezone.

    If Paris or a South African city enter the fray both will be incredibly difficult to beat and if the latter is Durban, neither would have any issues with the main stadium whilst any US city bar maybe LA would need to be incredibly creative.

    Personally an excellent 2026 games would be a great lauch pad for 2032 which incidentally would be the centenial LA games.

    • Like 1
  16. Please.

    No damn islands, no building artificial land on the Hudson, no Manhattan stadiums.

    The best model is the London model - regeneration of worn out urban space in an outer-borough.

    Agreed - but Stratford is not really an outer borough in London.

    Somewhere on the Queens/Brooklyn border might be best?

  17. That really isn't the problem.

    How do you not think that the IOC desire to avoid White elephants after a games, and the need to build an 80,000+ main stadium which has to be used afterwards is not a problem?

    Who would occupy this stadium if built in

    NY?

    Chicago?

    San Francisco?

  18. Indeed. It would affect a future Atlanta bid, but it will have zero affect on a future US bid. A credible US bid (i.e. without a NYC 2012-like stadium fiasco) from a well known US city (NYC, Chicago, San Fransisco, Dallas, et cetera) would be a very strong contender for 2024 (as long as NA doesn't get 2022).

    New York City, San Fransisco and Chicago would all be cities that I would love to see host the Olympics during my lifetime.

    North America aren't bidding for 2022

    The perenial problem any US bid has outside of LA, is what to do with the stadium afterwards

  19. Not really. It is the anti-americanism that they failed to address.

    - Atlanta was a highly profitable games for the IOC and for the USOC

    - It was highly successful for the viewers and attendees

    - It was highly successful for the athletes

    - Along with Barcelona it is simply the best example of how a games can transfer a mid-tier city

    - The legacy use of the Atlanta venues is unparalleled. Unlike the empty white-elephant venues of Sydney, Athens, and Beijing, Atlanta has made good use of all the investment

    Addressing the negative points:

    - The transport issue is ridiculous. There were a handful of isolated incidences. These were less significant than the initial empty seats and the security blunders London faced, and less than occurred in Athens by far

    - If you want to call Atlanta "a car crash" based on the few random internet editorials you have linked to, then I guess, the judging debacles in the fencing, triathlon, cycling and swimming in London, together with the above empty seats and security blunders, would mean London should be called a "cruise-ship wreck"

    As to the criticism that "coke bought the games". Wait a second - this is the same Coke that is a top sponsor. This is the same Coke that the IOC is desperately trying to get more revenues from - to the extent that they are prepared to humiliate Chicago just to force the USOC to give up more money from this Coke. Seems to me, Coke's money should be a plus!

    It is not a case of a few editorials - it is a matter of public record that the IOC demanded meetings throughout the games due to ongoing and continuing issues with transportation, and the IT system ... some athletes barely made it to their event start times.

    After Atlanta, the IOC demanded that all future games would guarantee the government cover any funding shortfall, as the Atlanta organisers scraped around for funny at the last moment.

    What security blunders ... a set of keys being mislaid. Problems prior to the games which were instantly resolved.

    What judging controversies? The judging is done by the indivudual sports federations and has nothing to do whatsoeve with LOCOG

    What empty seats controversy? LOCOG can prove that every single ticket bar the football events that they were able to sell to the public was sold. The IOC have admitted that the empty seats were the responsibility of the individual national federations who did not sell nor return unsold tickets - until they were forced to during the games and then people queue outside the French, German, Czech offices to buy tickets often at marked up prices. The IOC have admitted it was their fault and are reviewing the process for Rio.

    Explain how this was London's fault.

    2012 - London demanded meetings with the IOC to discuss the IOCs failings

    1996 - The IOC demanded meetings with the Atlanta OGC to discuss Atlanta's failings

    Big difference

  20. Described by who? Did they give example? Was transportation an "unmitigated mess"?

    A few lost bus drivers? That's what you've got? Kinda like the bus drivers who got lost in London. Sheesh.

    Really? A third world country? Do tell.. please give examples of this third world state of technology.

    They are supposed to be... what, thrown in jail? I've been to a bunch of Olympics.... all host cities still have street vendors.

    Really... a flea market? And even if folks were sellling their junk in downtown Atlanta, who cares? How does that make the Atlanta games such a disaster?

    You just agreed with somebody who did.

    Transportation

    "These are as bad a first few days as I've seen," said one high-ranking IOC member.

    The Olympic transportation system, which has separate components for athletes, journalists and spectators, has been denounced across the board for late arrivals and drivers who get lost.

    At a daily meeting with the Atlanta Committee for the Olympic Games, IOC officials insisted on immediate action. "It was the toughest meeting ACOG has had to sit through," said one IOC official who spoke on condition of anonymity.

    "Nobody ever believes it will be as difficult as it is. Now they believe it," said Dick Pound, a vice president of the International Olympic Committee.

    Technology

    The highly touted Olympic information system, which delivers scores and other results to news organizations, was suffering frequent failures. Glitches in the ACOG-IBM computer caused delays in getting results to news organizations throughout the weekend, and there were no results at all from some sports. While they tried to fix the problems, officials resorted to a system of distributing results manually--that is, having a messenger deliver the results by hand to news agencies, which then keyboarded the information. The IOC summoned IBM Chairman Louis Gerstner to an emergency meeting in Atlanta. A spokesman for IBM did not return a telephone call Sunday. The Associated Press, which distributes Olympic results to 1,500 newspapers across the nation, was unable to provide complete statistics because of the problems.

    "It is disappointing to know that what was billed as a state-of-the-art results service can't even produce bare scores in some cases," said Terry Taylor, AP sports editor. "The Olympics are the single most important event in sports," she said. "ACOG's inability to provide full results from these events is a disservice to our members and to their readers."

    An unmitigated disaster

    The Associated Press reports on the efforts of Olympics organizers and transportation officials in London, where next year's games will be held:

    "No one wants another Atlanta. The 1996 Games provided a cautionary tale of Olympic travel woes — with bus drivers getting lost, athletes arriving moments before their events and overloaded trains that couldn’t get residents home. It prompted the International Olympic Committee to lay out demands to make sure it didn’t happen again." “Atlanta was an unmitigated transport disaster,”

    rail expert Christian Wolmar said. “All the other Olympics — Beijing and Sydney — have learned their lessons.”

    Journalist Ronald DuPont recalling his transport experiences:

    "On my first night at the Olympics, the bus driver taking me and about 35 other people back to our cars got lost. Our half-hour trip took 1 1/2 hours, and we joked that we got the "scenic route."

    "On my second night, another bus driver prepared to get on the wrong highway until a chorus of Atlanta natives on the bus yelled in unison, directing him to the correct road."

    "Last night, on my way to the Olympics, our bus took the sideview mirror off a merging Jeep. (We pulled over to the side of the road and sat for a half-hour while police filled out their reports.) Then, when we got on the bus to head back, an Olympics representative got on the bus and publicly asked if there was anyone who could give our driver directions on how to get to the drop-off point. On the same night, a bus driver pulled to the side of the highway and promptly quit, saying the job was too dangerous. The lines to get on the busses are often thousands of people deep, and I've waited as long as an hour in the sun to board a bus."

    There is masses more

  21. Described by who? Did they give example? Was transportation an "unmitigated mess"?

    A few lost bus drivers? That's what you've got? Kinda like the bus drivers who got lost in London. Sheesh.

    Really? A third world country? Do tell.. please give examples of this third world state of technology.

    They are supposed to be... what, thrown in jail? I've been to a bunch of Olympics.... all host cities still have street vendors.

    Really... a flea market? And even if folks were sellling their junk in downtown Atlanta, who cares? How does that make the Atlanta games such a disaster?

    You just agreed with somebody who did.

    I am reporting to you the general comments made by the IOC and by American experts who have studied the history of the Olympic games and of the Atlanta games. When things are so bad that the President of the IOC tells the next American hosts to avoid such mistakes then it is spectacularly bad.

    If you don't want to agree with them then fine.

    But the majority of them do, including those who will be voting for future hosts. They regard the Atlanta games as over commercialised and trashy to such an extent, that they have insisted that every subsequent summer games since 1996 have the support of government to cover any funding shortfalls rather than trying to scrape the money together at the last moment.

    In London there were problem with 2 buses on the first day ... unlike Atlanta where it continued to be a problem throughtout the games.

  22. I believe the issue of public funding has to do with a governmental body being responsible for any shortfalls. There is nothing I have seen in writing that says X-amount has to come from public sources.

    And by the way, the Atlanta games made $11 million, so there was no deficit.

    Agree but if the government does not make that guarantee then forget it.

    Atlanta might have made a small profit, BUT it is the international perception which they failed to address.

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