1323 replies to this topic

[sport1]

It is always scary when someone has just enough knowledge to actually believe they are an expert in a subject. Occasionally Jim does raise valid concerns which deserve public (and online) debate but too often they are merely uninformed opinions of someone who is not looking for debate but rather is preaching a point of view.

The federal government has 4 stated priorities in sport for Canada which includes fully supporting Halifax 2014. The federal government has said many times that cabenit supports the Games. The new soccer stadium is beling built in Toronto for $80 million which has 25,000 seats. This can provide a poprotional arguement for the cost of a larger stadium that would be built for Games. Comparing US pro sport stadiums to those that are built in Canada is invalid. Our country's stadiums are much more comparable to those on collge campuses across the US.

For those who are not aware, Nancy Garapick was a Olympic medalist from the 1970's. Jim's reference to someone 30 years ago as a rational as how we can produce athletes without facilities defies logic. He has obviously never spoken to a swimmer, diver or athletics person in the current century. I do agree that coaching is the number 1 support for athletes but we cannot maintain our coaches because they do not have proper facilities to run there programs. People in the sport world understand this.

The sport legacy from the most recent Canadian Commonwealth Games in Victoria has been immense. Many of our most successful national team athletes and programs such as middle distance running, triathlon, cycling and more recently diving and swimming ( from the 1994 aquatics legacy) have clearly demonstrated the ongoing value of legacy facilities and finances from the Games. The Claude Roubiard Centre in Montreal ( a 1976 legacy) houses the athletes and coaches of several national teams and is arguably the most vibrant high performance facility in Canada. These are facts.

There are over 70 athletes from halifax who are currently on national teams who train in Halifax. Considering our facility base, this is a strong number. All evidence from recent Games clearly point to this number greatly increasing. More importantly, I believe that any Games held in Canada will ensure that facilities can be maximized for community use after Games. I know the public will demand and expect this from a Halifax bid.

There are financial questions regarding the 2014 Halifax Games that need to be answered. When all numbers are public, I believe that there will be a healthy debate as there will be in Scotland and Nigeria. The Games will be a major investment that need to be carefully developed.

My final comment is on leadership. It always annoys me to have people crusade against projects and never bring anything reasonable to the table as a alternative pathway to getting federal and corporate funding for projects that would not happen otherwise. Pan American Games is too big and has too many sports for Halifax to host in the next 25 years. The revenues for this event are even smaller than for Commonwealth games. It is no solution to do nothing or else we will be complaining about missed opportunities and the lack of infrastructure 20 years from now.


Halifax has always played host to the world in an exceptional manner. If a responsible bid is successful, we will do the same in 2014.

jim jones, on Aug 31 2006, 10:34 PM, said:

So Sport what public opinion poll points to growing public support for the commownealth games in Halifax? Seems to me until a survey comes to the light of day from the committee or another source we are really looking at these snake oil salesmen having no concrete public opinion polls with numbers that have not increased from the decrease of the last poll conducted for the Halifax Herald. If the committee had that positive news we would have it writen on the two spans across halifax harbour LOL. As to key ministers so far we have seen Micheal Chong and and Peter Mackay Who dont have the check writing authority and are basically paying lip service to pro commonwealth games lobbists in halifax. Harper has not made a statement on the commonwealth games. Jim Flattery has made the statement that if the provinces want increased programs for their people they should increase the provincial taxes. Bev Oda the boss of micheal chong has been silent. By this time in the 2003 process Sheilla Copps had the concrete numbers for hamilton detailed in a press release.

Now as to the cost of a main stadium please do the research and find out what a 35,000 seat stadium is costing these days . A 40,000 seat baseball park in washington DC is costing 600 US dollars.The national stadium complex in abuja nigeria cost 600 million US in 2003 dollars or over 800 million canadian at the time. Of course the National Stadium in Abuja has the arena Velodrome, aquatic centre and media centre all within that complex so I would grant that stadium cost 300 million for the main stadium part . That stadium however was built before the demand of steel took of because of the need to fuel chinas industrial machine. The new Wembley Stadium was subject to 100 million pounds of costover runs due in large part to worldwide demand in steel. A new arena for the new jersey devils, in newark new jersey, is costing 350 million for 18,000 seats of capacity. The internet site Field of Schemes details what sports palaces are costing these days.
Like most Pro Sport festival people in the HRM you ignore what is going on the world with sports facility costs and Say "Oh it will be so much different in Halifax "
Yes to either be neive,stupid or ignorant of what is happening the world seems like great leadership for halifax and the province of nova scotia.

Sorry you dont have control on the worldwide market for steel, concrete or labour which accounts for situations like the 2004 summer games in athens ballooning to 8 billion dollars US Or the cost overruns in vancouver to the tune of 110 million dollars canadian . Yes Stephen Harper showed his willingness to open up the treasury to the european sport festival MOB only granting Half of what was requested
The commonwealth games if awarded to halifax cost nearly 2 billion if not exceed it .
The simple math is there no stadium , no velodrome , no aquatic centre and no field house on the ground right now. Huge costs for operation and security. The recipe is there to bankrupt the province and the city that are in debt to the tunes of 12 billion and 280 million respectfully.

As to these high performance athletes we are producing here How are we doing it with the void of not having the facilities you want everyone else to pay for? Nancy Garapick was cheated out of a gold medal by the doped up east germans in montreal and yet she did her training in the centenial pool. Seems to me the arguement of the need for facilities to produce elite athletes is moot by hers and others who have followed from the atlantic region without the 400 million dollar stadiums or 60 million dollar aquatic centres.

If you are so convinced that these facilites create elite athletes then tell me how many elite athletes came because of the hosting of the commownealth games in victoria that are from vancouver island? How about the Edmonton commonwealth games of 1978 . Or lets try montreal 1976.
The only place that a sports festival has born fruit of world classed winning atheltes in canada is the Calgary with the winter olympics in 1988. The reason for that is The games made a profit allowing then maintance of the facilities and the paying of world classed coaching around a unique set of facilites in the world . A summer sports venue is the same in ever single place on earth yet kenya seem to have the monopoly on distance runners without such facilities. The carribean nations seem to have the monopoly on the 100 meters and other short distance speed events.
Yes all the fuzzy logic arguements to why we are paying for a commonwealth games stadium when we all know the real purpose is to get a facility for the CFL to have a corporate welfare bum Pro sports franchise in halifax is the real thrust of this efford. The facilities will be the domain of either the CFL club or the elite aquatic athletes that are leaving Halifax in droves LOL. Not the oyuth of the city for recreation purposes like Pro games people are trying to sell to the public. And Just Who are these new Nancy Garapicks in the region???? and what US college have they chosen to attend on swimming scholarships with what really counts in the pool. world classed coaching and sports science departments. Athletes in Atlantic Canada dont leave the region because of lack of facilities they leave to be coached by the best they cant find here.
jim jones.

[jim jones]

Well sport1 you have the classic thinking in the HRM among pro games supporters not to realize the polictial or financial realities of a Commonwealth Games.

First Politically we have Mayor Peter Kelly wanting to have a federal share larger then what has been given in the past with sports festivals in Canada. Micheal Chong has stated that the Federal government will not go beyond 35 percent funding. If mayor Kelly can't even afford the city share or the cost overuns that will come from a neive estimate then he should withdrawn right now.
It is the host city s responibility for cost overuns and the people of both rural nova scotia and the HRM will be the suckers left with the bill for overuns. Cost overruns are bound to occur as a very neive estimate that even jives with the city of ottawa's estimate of 950 million dollars to host the commonwealth games with a stadium already on the ground.

If the tories were fund with a blank cheque then Stephen Harper and other western tories would have to answer to their base of support in western canada. The political reality is there would never be anything to gained by funding the commonwealth games as far as the political fortunes of the Tories in the HRM. With all 4 HRM seats electing liberal and ndp MPs the tories would not win those seats coming from third palce and 20 percentage points behind the winners of those seats.
Considering that ,Liberal MP for Vancouver, David Emerson had to cross the floor of the house to ensure that the Vanoc would get some attention federally to their cost overruns. That only move across the floor only amounted to 55 million with a NO MORE MONEY from the feds statement that signals that The tories are not going to fund a sport festival with a blank cheque like the HRM council and 2014 halifax committee would lead people to beleive in the province and city. I am sure Vancouver will be crying again for money in the next 4 years because fo cost overruns and the landmine that awaits them with the building of the speedskating oval on sandy soil in richmond.

With Stephen Harper representing Calgary West (a district that is part of a city that withdrew the domestic bid for the Commonwealth games 2014) his consituents would not take kindly to a "maritime hand" out larger then the federal share afforded the Calgary Olympics.

Have some news for you Sport 1 Paul Martin made no financial commitment to the halifax bid either while he was in office. Paul Martin it is evident had his hand on sending the commonwealth games bid to Halifax but for what purpose???? Paul Martin has taken an interest in the development of Africa since he was a teen and my theory is he sent Halifax the bid for two reasons A. score political points with the HRM voters with no costs B. Send the canadain city bid that is weakest to help ABuja Nigeria win the 2014 commowealth games bid.

You think it is far feached well Here is the simple truths. Hamilton made a request for a review on the process feeling that as the winner of the last domestic bid they were entitled and there was probably political interferance. Paul Martin since his defeat has been travelling the country lobbying the Tories to honor an agreement his government made. No not the commonwealth games bid ,that not one single announcement of how much money the feds were contributing has been made, Paul Martin has been photo oping and appearing at indian reserves trying to force the tories to honor the Kelowna agreement . Seems Mr. Martin ,the only lifeline to anything looking like funding federally , has forgotten the Halfiax bid or doesnt remember even making a commitment which he indeed did not.

Paul Martin was so interested in having halifax host the commonwealth games that he stood up the annual commonwealth heads of state conferance in 2005 at the displeasure of the entire commonwealth that then questioned whether canada was interested in the body. If you are going to sabotage something putting noses out of joint of the people who decide where the commowealth games will be hosted is a great start. MR Martin did that by standing up the Commonwealth nation conferance last year when it was held in Malta.

Micheal Chong and the tories were as interested as Paul Martin as it was not Micheal Chong who did the presentation for the bid in Melbourne at the commonwealth games. No federal representive was present for that one of an meaning. No prime minister, no ministers of sport , foriegn affairs, heritage canada , the privy council or most importantly Finance Minister who has grilled Vanoc over the cost overruns . The committee was there with provincial and city officials and the minsiter of sport for the british colony of gilbrator mistaked the minsiter in charge of sport for nova scotia for the minister of sport for the entire country of canada.
I can imagine "nova scotia where???" Halifax Where ????

The nigerians however had a former prime minister and the scots had their first minister make their presentations . That carries weigh to as who wants these games and who does not.

Now to finances . Stadiums and other venues cost a great deal of money when not build for a sport festival involving european sports bodies . Get wrapped up in the european sports festival mob and you look at greater costs then a stadium for major league baseball or the national hockey league.
My 400 million canadian is very very optamistic LOL.

The tories basically told the international ice hockey federation to take or leave GM place as it is a venue for the 2010 vancouver games. The tories will avoid that in the future by quitely bowing out of hosting sports festivals. Vancouver is a work in progress that would be polictially hard to abandom with the number of toires outside the lower mainland of birtish cloumbia amounting to many times the ammount in nova scotia . Halfiax as of May of this year had not applied to acquire the federal land that the comittee and city want for the commonwealth games to be held on maily shannon park . With a year to go to the dealine for the biding and up to 18 months of process with that stage Harper and company could easily say "well heres your federal share along with the security. our part is the land good luck with your games socialist halifax"

The Pan Am games are not a second class olympics like the CWG's with few revenues opportunities like the commonwealth games. The CBC in 2003 paid 10 million for the world wide broadcast rights for the
Pan AM games in the dominican republic. Between south and north america for soccer and baseball between , panama, cuba , the united states and the domician republic you actually have some sport native to canada that may have some commerical value for TV rights in an area with 5 times zones including the eastern seaboard of the united states. With the commonwealth games having about 20 time zones and most of the commonwealth in the enfantacy stage of commerical value for consumer products their is little value for sponsors. within the americans there are many sponsors who span the entire territory but with the commonwealth games the only two that seem to repeat corporate support are microsoft and cadbury swhepps. I am sure Scotiabank would realize more
value commerically with a Pan Am games with their operations in south, central, north american and the carribean.
The commonwealth games you have the melbourne committee basically having to pay the Cbc to play a highlight show of one hour. Not much advertizing opportunity there in the north american or western european market places.

With the Pan Am games you dont have to deal with the demands of european sport bodies which really is an attempt to rob the taxpayer blind.

If you want to develope elite athletes the best example is the united states which has centralized training centres . I would much rather see the base grants for amateur athletes doubled and the athletes decide who they will train with . Dale Begg-Smith certainly made his choice and won the gold for australia as a canadian . donovan bailey trained at the univerity of texas prior to his gold medals in atlanta.

Two centers of excellence being calgary and toronto would yield the results . Calgary is the only place a games has left a legacy that has made a difference at the medal table and that is because of the 70 million dollar profit the games realized and the good financial work done in the years after the games by Copa.

Tie an university education and expenses paid for by the canadian government in two locations and you will see the results. Sports palaces in Halfiax will only be taken over by a CFL team and the taxpayer wil have to subsidize that operation too with no real benefit to amatuer athletics. There are plenty of field houses, rubberized tracks and other facilites in the HRM that lose money for the taxpayer. subsidizing a CFL operation will just take away from the funding for the metro centre and other places which are in heavy debt right now .

jim jones

[mr.x]

i can't believe i wasted 10 minutes reading that junk......this "the sky is falling!" attitude and your narrow minded views are extremely annoying. i don't see at all how you can claim yourself as a credible person when you get your facts wrong.

1) "Now as to the cost of a main stadium please do the research and find out what a 35,000 seat stadium is costing these days . A 40,000 seat baseball park in washington DC is costing 600 US dollars.The national stadium complex in abuja nigeria cost 600 million US in 2003 dollars or over 800 million canadian at the time. Of course the National Stadium in Abuja has the arena Velodrome, aquatic centre and media centre all within that complex so I would grant that stadium cost 300 million for the main stadium part . That stadium however was built before the demand of steel took of because of the need to fuel chinas industrial machine. The new Wembley Stadium was subject to 100 million pounds of costover runs due in large part to worldwide demand in steel. A new arena for the new jersey devils, in newark new jersey, is costing 350 million for 18,000 seats of capacity."

Well of course those stadiums are high-priced, because they always have been! These stadiums include luxurious amenities and designs. The new Wembley went through many cost overruns simply because of its extravagant design.

A simple 35,000 seat stadium, expandable to 50,000 for future Grey Cup use, would cost around $180-200 million.



2) "Sorry you dont have control on the worldwide market for steel, concrete or labour which accounts for situations like the 2004 summer games in athens ballooning to 8 billion dollars US Or the cost overruns in vancouver to the tune of 110 million dollars canadian . Yes Stephen Harper showed his willingness to open up the treasury to the european sport festival MOB only granting Half of what was requested"

Ballooning costs for the 2004 Athens Olympics were due to poor planning, corruption, and politics. ATHOC and the Greek government had issues on the contractors, which completed halted the first three years of Olympic organizing for the Greeks. The Greek government got a new OCOG rolling after, hired Gianna Angelopoulos-Daskalaki as CEO, and they only had 4 years to plan and they started venue construction only 2 years before the Games. Construction was around the clock and more workers were hired than usual in order to get things completed on time. Other costs that contributed to the $8 billion cost include a new emergency communications centre that will serve as the security centre for the Games, intense security during the Games, new infrastructure including new roads and highways, a massive suspension bridge, major improvements to the city's metro, a new tram system, and improved bus service. They didn't have to build all of this, they simply wanted to impress the world since this was the homecoming of the Olympics....and building too much in such a short time was a huge mistake for the Greeks, and at the same time this is all infrastructure that is needed.

Secondly, VANOC did not ask the federal government to foot the entire $110 million bill. They asked that the province contribute half and the federal gov't contribute the other half. Get your facts straight. And the province would only fund it's half only if the federal gov't would too.


3) "If you are so convinced that these facilites create elite athletes then tell me how many elite athletes came because of the hosting of the commownealth games in victoria that are from vancouver island? How about the Edmonton commonwealth games of 1978 . Or lets try montreal 1976."

Victoria was a huge success and today, much because of 1994, it remains as a major athlete training centre in Canada. Montreal 1976 also provided training facilities for our athletes and it too became a major athlete training centre.



4) "I am sure Vancouver will be crying again for money in the next 4 years because fo cost overruns and the landmine that awaits them with the building of the speedskating oval on sandy soil in richmond."

Only $200 million worth of sport venue construction projects have not started and there are only 2 years of construction left, with all new venues to be completed in 2008. That does not leave too much room for additional major overruns. Secondly, overruns to the Richmond oval are not the responsibility of VANOC but to the City of Richmond. Federal funding will not be asked for the oval.



5) "The tories basically told the international ice hockey federation to take or leave GM place as it is a venue for the 2010 vancouver games."

The Tories told the IIHF to take or leave GM Place? Are you retarded? That's a VANOC decision: that spending $10 million to expand the ice surface to international standards for 2010 ice hockey and then turning back the ice surface to the way it was before the Games would be stupid, and therefore that $10 million is saved.

[Sir Rols]

mr.x, on Sep 5 2006, 05:44 AM, said:

i can't believe i wasted 10 minutes reading that junk......this "the sky is falling!" attitude and your narrow minded views are extremely annoying. i don't see at all how you can claim yourself as a credible person when you get your facts wrong.

Jim never lets the facts get in the way of his spamming crusade against Halifax.

[sport1]

As the others have indicated, facts never get in the way of an uninformed rant. The federal goverment will be making their financial support of the Halifax 2014 Games presumably before the bids are submitted next spring. Its fair to say there will probably be some negotiation before then and when that is complete, the number will be released. Jim's view on the inner working of cabinet or merely speculation. I will be waiting for his slant when their contribution is confirmed.

Who cares about what Paul Martin thinks and does these days. He is not in power. Harper's government is funding the bid, I presume they are interested in winning it. If not, why would they fully participate at the bid level?

I believe CBC paid 10 million to be the host broadcaster for Pan Am Games. They would bid for the same right for Halifax because this roile makes money and sense regardless of the Games. How much Pan Am coverage did you see in Canada?

jim jones, on Sep 3 2006, 06:09 PM, said:

Well sport1 you have the classic thinking in the HRM among pro games supporters not to realize the polictial or financial realities of a Commonwealth Games.

First Politically we have Mayor Peter Kelly wanting to have a federal share larger then what has been given in the past with sports festivals in Canada. Micheal Chong has stated that the Federal government will not go beyond 35 percent funding. If mayor Kelly can't even afford the city share or the cost overuns that will come from a neive estimate then he should withdrawn right now.
It is the host city s responibility for cost overuns and the people of both rural nova scotia and the HRM will be the suckers left with the bill for overuns. Cost overruns are bound to occur as a very neive estimate that even jives with the city of ottawa's estimate of 950 million dollars to host the commonwealth games with a stadium already on the ground.

If the tories were fund with a blank cheque then Stephen Harper and other western tories would have to answer to their base of support in western canada. The political reality is there would never be anything to gained by funding the commonwealth games as far as the political fortunes of the Tories in the HRM. With all 4 HRM seats electing liberal and ndp MPs the tories would not win those seats coming from third palce and 20 percentage points behind the winners of those seats.
Considering that ,Liberal MP for Vancouver, David Emerson had to cross the floor of the house to ensure that the Vanoc would get some attention federally to their cost overruns. That only move across the floor only amounted to 55 million with a NO MORE MONEY from the feds statement that signals that The tories are not going to fund a sport festival with a blank cheque like the HRM council and 2014 halifax committee would lead people to beleive in the province and city. I am sure Vancouver will be crying again for money in the next 4 years because fo cost overruns and the landmine that awaits them with the building of the speedskating oval on sandy soil in richmond.

With Stephen Harper representing Calgary West (a district that is part of a city that withdrew the domestic bid for the Commonwealth games 2014) his consituents would not take kindly to a "maritime hand" out larger then the federal share afforded the Calgary Olympics.

Have some news for you Sport 1 Paul Martin made no financial commitment to the halifax bid either while he was in office. Paul Martin it is evident had his hand on sending the commonwealth games bid to Halifax but for what purpose???? Paul Martin has taken an interest in the development of Africa since he was a teen and my theory is he sent Halifax the bid for two reasons A. score political points with the HRM voters with no costs B. Send the canadain city bid that is weakest to help ABuja Nigeria win the 2014 commowealth games bid.

You think it is far feached well Here is the simple truths. Hamilton made a request for a review on the process feeling that as the winner of the last domestic bid they were entitled and there was probably political interferance. Paul Martin since his defeat has been travelling the country lobbying the Tories to honor an agreement his government made. No not the commonwealth games bid ,that not one single announcement of how much money the feds were contributing has been made, Paul Martin has been photo oping and appearing at indian reserves trying to force the tories to honor the Kelowna agreement . Seems Mr. Martin ,the only lifeline to anything looking like funding federally , has forgotten the Halfiax bid or doesnt remember even making a commitment which he indeed did not.

Paul Martin was so interested in having halifax host the commonwealth games that he stood up the annual commonwealth heads of state conferance in 2005 at the displeasure of the entire commonwealth that then questioned whether canada was interested in the body. If you are going to sabotage something putting noses out of joint of the people who decide where the commowealth games will be hosted is a great start. MR Martin did that by standing up the Commonwealth nation conferance last year when it was held in Malta.

Micheal Chong and the tories were as interested as Paul Martin as it was not Micheal Chong who did the presentation for the bid in Melbourne at the commonwealth games. No federal representive was present for that one of an meaning. No prime minister, no ministers of sport , foriegn affairs, heritage canada , the privy council or most importantly Finance Minister who has grilled Vanoc over the cost overruns . The committee was there with provincial and city officials and the minsiter of sport for the british colony of gilbrator mistaked the minsiter in charge of sport for nova scotia for the minister of sport for the entire country of canada.
I can imagine "nova scotia where???" Halifax Where ????

The nigerians however had a former prime minister and the scots had their first minister make their presentations . That carries weigh to as who wants these games and who does not.

Now to finances . Stadiums and other venues cost a great deal of money when not build for a sport festival involving european sports bodies . Get wrapped up in the european sports festival mob and you look at greater costs then a stadium for major league baseball or the national hockey league.
My 400 million canadian is very very optamistic LOL.

The tories basically told the international ice hockey federation to take or leave GM place as it is a venue for the 2010 vancouver games. The tories will avoid that in the future by quitely bowing out of hosting sports festivals. Vancouver is a work in progress that would be polictially hard to abandom with the number of toires outside the lower mainland of birtish cloumbia amounting to many times the ammount in nova scotia . Halfiax as of May of this year had not applied to acquire the federal land that the comittee and city want for the commonwealth games to be held on maily shannon park . With a year to go to the dealine for the biding and up to 18 months of process with that stage Harper and company could easily say "well heres your federal share along with the security. our part is the land good luck with your games socialist halifax"

The Pan Am games are not a second class olympics like the CWG's with few revenues opportunities like the commonwealth games. The CBC in 2003 paid 10 million for the world wide broadcast rights for the
Pan AM games in the dominican republic. Between south and north america for soccer and baseball between , panama, cuba , the united states and the domician republic you actually have some sport native to canada that may have some commerical value for TV rights in an area with 5 times zones including the eastern seaboard of the united states. With the commonwealth games having about 20 time zones and most of the commonwealth in the enfantacy stage of commerical value for consumer products their is little value for sponsors. within the americans there are many sponsors who span the entire territory but with the commonwealth games the only two that seem to repeat corporate support are microsoft and cadbury swhepps. I am sure Scotiabank would realize more
value commerically with a Pan Am games with their operations in south, central, north american and the carribean.
The commonwealth games you have the melbourne committee basically having to pay the Cbc to play a highlight show of one hour. Not much advertizing opportunity there in the north american or western european market places.

With the Pan Am games you dont have to deal with the demands of european sport bodies which really is an attempt to rob the taxpayer blind.

If you want to develope elite athletes the best example is the united states which has centralized training centres . I would much rather see the base grants for amateur athletes doubled and the athletes decide who they will train with . Dale Begg-Smith certainly made his choice and won the gold for australia as a canadian . donovan bailey trained at the univerity of texas prior to his gold medals in atlanta.

Two centers of excellence being calgary and toronto would yield the results . Calgary is the only place a games has left a legacy that has made a difference at the medal table and that is because of the 70 million dollar profit the games realized and the good financial work done in the years after the games by Copa.

Tie an university education and expenses paid for by the canadian government in two locations and you will see the results. Sports palaces in Halfiax will only be taken over by a CFL team and the taxpayer wil have to subsidize that operation too with no real benefit to amatuer athletics. There are plenty of field houses, rubberized tracks and other facilites in the HRM that lose money for the taxpayer. subsidizing a CFL operation will just take away from the funding for the metro centre and other places which are in heavy debt right now .

jim jones

[jim jones]

sport1, on Sep 5 2006, 07:58 PM, said:

As the others have indicated, facts never get in the way of an uninformed rant. The federal goverment will be making their financial support of the Halifax 2014 Games presumably before the bids are submitted next spring. Its fair to say there will probably be some negotiation before then and when that is complete, the number will be released. Jim's view on the inner working of cabinet or merely speculation. I will be waiting for his slant when their contribution is confirmed.

Who cares about what Paul Martin thinks and does these days. He is not in power. Harper's government is funding the bid, I presume they are interested in winning it. If not, why would they fully participate at the bid level?

I believe CBC paid 10 million to be the host broadcaster for Pan Am Games. They would bid for the same right for Halifax because this roile makes money and sense regardless of the Games. How much Pan Am coverage did you see in Canada?

Lets try 40 million US for the worldwide broadcast right fee for the commonwealth games. The richest man in australia, the late Kerry Packer, said in 2003 that between the 40 million dollar us and the 20 million it would take in production costs his channel nine network would lose vast ammounts of money on the deal. $ 450,000 was all that could be gained from India by the committee , another $ 450,000 from the rest of asia for the committee and the manchester 2002 committee obtained a mere $ 12,000 dollars for the broadcast rights for south africa which then subletted that feed to the rest of africa. Considering the rumours of the CBC having to be paid and all the other networks passing at firesale pricing at the 11th hour there is the value of a commonwealth games for tv right purchasers.
With a 40 million us dollar cost for something of a value of a million dollars in sales to 80 percent of the population seems like a great deal for nova scotians. Then you add another 40 million US for merchantdizing rights. Merchantdize rights which were sited for a 120 year old compnay Melbourne Sports Depot taking the hit on stuffed mascots that did not sell at the melbourne games.
without Kerry Packer being on the hook melbourne would certianly have gone much further in debt.
Have to ask you sport or scott who have you IDed to paid for the broadcast fees ?????

Considering the moaning and goaning over loaning michelin tire 4.5 million for actual jobs in the province I am sure that the taxpayers would love to hear how money would be pissed away with no possible return just to have the silver plated sport venues that will be taken over by a CFL team that will go bankrupt in halifax.

The 40 million US for commonwealth games rights will not be something the CBC will be able to afford in a winter olympic year and to maitain a contract with the NHL which is their bread and butter. So what will the CBC have to pay after Roger and Bell paid 138 million US for the domestic rights for vancouver 2010??? Again There is not the political will for the tories, there is nothing for the tories to gain in metro, The CBC does not have the resources or is not stupid enough like Kerry Packer was to become the latest in series of commonwealth games suckers. Cleve's is not Melbourne Sports Depot and that is why you see token support from some companies in the area but nothing on the scale that even comes close to the corporate drive in melbourne that came up short by 50 percent of the target by the 2006 committee. The great thing about my main sources for information is that it is Fairfax Media whos Chairman is none other then the 2006 commonwealth games committee chair Ron Walker. His own newspapers acuse him of being a liar with figures on the melbourne grand prix. LOL

So in regard to montreal what facilities to then have that are being used by amateur athletics in canada. The velodrome is a museum , the main stadium is a convention centre basically with some playoff games for the CFL if the montreal team makes it into the playoffs. There has not been a track surface in the Big OWE since the late 70's. The Diving pool was not good enough for the Fina world aquatic championships last year and a new one had to be built.
Yes Paul Martin opened up the bank on the fina games with a mere 16 million when the games came up short for corporate sponsorship .

Isnt there a reoccuring themes here . A. Corporations dont buy into exposure for high prices especially when sports festival no one watchs like a Commonweealth games or Fina World Aquatics
championship . B. There are always cost overuns and huge ammounts of debt that take decades to pay off. LOL
Yes the legacy for melbourne is that they have to do millions in upgrades for the Fina world aquatic championships with a brand new aquatic centre costing over 65 million AU dollars . I didn t know sports legacys didnt even last 12 months LOL

jim jones

[jim jones]

Well one person here said "if they get to the biding next spring" I very much doubt it because they know they are beat on the issue of federal funding. Halifax does not get screwed for funding at all because federal governments dont subcribe to this need for an outdoor stadium in a place half the size of ottawa which has lost CFL teams twice. There is no tennant for a outdoor stadium in halifax and the business plan of having a stadium inwhich the Rolling Stones would play a commonwealth games stadium in halifax post 2014 is unbelievalbe that a committee member like scott logan would even forward this idea. The rolling stone will be reitred or not drawing in those type of numbers.

As to Wembley Cost overruns were mostly the rising price of Steel in the world which is due to the demand from china. it was 100 million pounds of cost overrun. To me these stadium lobbists build with an estimate that they think is acceptable to the taxpayers and then get into trouble.

Fact is that as of may 2006 there was not application for the purchase of the Shannon Park Land

according to the man in charge of deposal of federal lands. that process takes from 12 to 18 months or beyond the dealine for the games bid.
Considering that fact alone you are looking at lobbists who A.
beleive they actually won a domestic bid on merit B. that winning the bid is a prize worth winning and C. Have neively under estimated the costs that it broader on crimmial.

Scott logan even have the nerve to accuse the media of inventing a 500 million dollar estimate which was in fact presented before the HRM council in August of 2005 prior to the awarding of the domestic bid and prior to his involvement in the 2014 halifax committee.

Basically the Tories told the International ice hockey federation to go pile sand as it is David Emerson who had to come back with a mere 33 million dollar at that point for cost overruns.
The tories did not bend and take the bate of kissing the europeans boots on that issue and have sent a clear message NO MORE COST OVERRUNS.

That is why the Vanoc had to scrap the Arena in whistler for the paraolympics LOL. If the city of richmond is on the hook for cost overruns for the speed skating oval look out taxpayers of richmond . The tolerance for a speed skating oval is about 1mm per 100 metres off level. Salt lake city had to redo their speed skating oval because of 4 so called Bumps. just part of the dirty work of dealing with the european sports festival mob.

As to a stadium and costs in halifax try 18 million for the track and field surface alone at 2006 dollars to meet IAAF standards according to the melbourne games. Those standards are not avoided with a facility in abuja that meets IAAF class A. I dont think the africans (epsecially the presidnet of the IAAF a native from the west african nation of sengal ) are going to allow halifax any downscaling from that standard in light of what is on the ground in abuja today.

Abuja will win I am very sure of that. 600 million dollar us stadium complex , a velodrome constructed by the german velodrome constructor who is olympic preferred. A country which will have 50 billion in foriegn reserves by the end of the year. a country that recently retired 32 billion in debt and is now less then 5 billion in debt. and finally a voting block that defeated hamilton to award new delhi the games. Arica it is your turn after 86 years of being denied.

jim jones

[mr.x]

Skimming over that mindless cr@p and speculation quickly and pointing out mistakes, i saw:

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Yes the legacy for melbourne is that they have to do millions in upgrades for the Fina world aquatic championships with a brand new aquatic centre costing over 65 million AU dollars . I didn t know sports legacys didnt even last 12 months LOL

Wrong. You are talking about a temporary 50-metre pool being constructed at a 15,000 seat tennis stadium, the site of the Australian Open. This is a testament towards Australia's love for sports.

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As to Wembley Cost overruns were mostly the rising price of Steel in the world which is due to the demand from china. it was 100 million pounds of cost overrun. To me these stadium lobbists build with an estimate that they think is acceptable to the taxpayers and then get into trouble.

$100 million pounds or roughly $210 million Canadian dollars = new Wembley Stadium cost overrun. Who the f#ck cares about cost overruns when these overruns are the responsibilty of the contractor: the private sector. No public money is involved.

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Basically the Tories told the International ice hockey federation to go pile sand as it is David Emerson who had to come back with a mere 33 million dollar at that point for cost overruns. The tories did not bend and take the bate of kissing the europeans boots on that issue and have sent a clear message NO MORE COST OVERRUNS.

That is why the Vanoc had to scrap the Arena in whistler for the paraolympics LOL. If the city of richmond is on the hook for cost overruns for the speed skating oval look out taxpayers of richmond . The tolerance for a speed skating oval is about 1mm per 100 metres off level. Salt lake city had to redo their speed skating oval because of 4 so called Bumps. just part of the dirty work of dealing with the european sports festival mob.

Wrong again. The Whistler arena was scrapped simply because the City of Whistler would not pay up for the cost. Unforseen increases in the cost of labour and materials was not projected in 2002 by both the private sector for several major condo projects in Vancouver and the public sector. Nobody could have known its magnitude, especially British Columbia's proximity to China and B.C.'s booming economy.

The Whistler arena cost jumped to $50 million, which was too much for Whistler and therefore it was moved to Vancouver. VANOC's share in the arena cost was $20 million, and this money will now go into a contingency fund. This has absolutely nothing to do with the Tories.

And regarding the speed skating oval.....no duh. These are international requirements for all competition speed skating ovals.



I don't get why you waste your time on posting these super long posts when really, nobody takes your "facts", which really are speculation, seriously.

[jim jones]

unforseen costs UMMMM so how is it that you think unforseen costs will no occur in Halifax between 2007 and 2014? The problem with sport festivals and Halifax is that much has to be done in th line of capital costs and then you have a games that are close to 100 million a day to operate when security is included. If you look at cities in europe, africa , asia and even south america wanting to bid on a sports festival they start with a less event like a regional games like the all african games and then go up the ladder with the facilities they build without the pressure from the europeans. Abuja built the facilites with olympic perferred contractors for the all african games in 2003.
We have the secrecy behind this affair in nova scotia simply because the federal funding is not there and if it is it is not what is needed to cover the financial asses of the city and the province. We dont need a commonwealth games, 35,000 seat stadium, an aquatics centre or an indoor velodrome. Unforseen costs for a summer games will add up to a good part of 2 billion and the federal tories will not make funding allowances for that . The Paul Martin liberals were looking at underfunding the games if you went by their commitment for hamilton in 2003 for the 2010 games. Just because your premier in BC , who has a liking for hawaii drinks, thinks we should go of a cliff for a sports festival does not mean it is wise at all. The Winter Olympics is something that is worth while as far as the commerical aspect the commonwealth games has no commercial value in this day and age for a city in canada.

Calgary realized the commerical value of the commonwealth games and dropped out of the domestic biding. Halifax was awarded the boobie prize. We were sent the games by a very politically wise Paul Martin to lose the international bid to Abuja plane and simple.

jimjones

"The Whistler arena cost jumped to $50 million, which was too much for Whistler and therefore it was moved to Vancouver. VANOC's share in the arena cost was $20 million, and this money will now go into a contingency fund. This has absolutely nothing to do with the Tories."

A contingency fund that the committee knows it will have to draw on becasue there are more cost overruns to come and the funding gates are closed in ottawa after the last round of begging to the feds.

The town of whistler cant afford a $ 50 million dollar arena???? With 20 million paid for by the committee and probably the province of BC would have and some of the highest property taxes in the entire country. So where is that 35,000 seat stadium that will not cost 200 million canadian with absolutely no cost overruns to build between 2007 and 2014 on land that has not even been purcahsed from the federal government?

No wonder you have the dream views you do after all you are from the Left coast. LOL

jim jones

[mr.x]

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unforseen costs UMMMM so how is it that you think unforseen costs will no occur in Halifax between 2007 and 2014? The problem with sport festivals and Halifax is that much has to be done in th line of capital costs and then you have a games that are close to 100 million a day to operate when security is included. If you look at cities in europe, africa , asia and even south america wanting to bid on a sports festival they start with a less event like a regional games like the all african games and then go up the ladder with the facilities they build without the pressure from the europeans. Abuja built the facilites with olympic perferred contractors for the all african games in 2003.

First of all, I'm talking about the unforseen costs of Vancouver 2010. The inflated construction costs could not have been predicted to rise so rapidly by anyone. Ask any Vancouver developer caught with their pants down. That is a world phenomenom.

Secondly, labour and construction will only get more and more expensive. You can't be scared and say no to everything simply because you're afraid of inflated prices. That's how the world works.

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We have the secrecy behind this affair in nova scotia simply because the federal funding is not there and if it is it is not what is needed to cover the financial asses of the city and the province. We dont need a commonwealth games, 35,000 seat stadium, an aquatics centre or an indoor velodrome.

Details of bid plans are never released until the bid book has been submitted. Plans for the 2010 Olympic bids were released a few weeks after the bid books were submitted, same as the 2012 Olympic bid process and the 2010 Commonwealth Games bid process.

Why? Because you never ever want your opponent to know what you're up to. That is why not much is known about Halifax, Glasgow, and Abuja 2014.

So if you don't want a 35,000 seat stadium, I'm guessing you don't want the CFL either, which pumps lots of money into the economy especially for a city the size of Halifax.

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Just because your premier in BC , who has a liking for hawaii drinks, thinks we should go of a cliff for a sports festival does not mean it is wise at all.

Oooooo....why'd you say that? You must be threatened by my comments, and you must think there's a chance that Halifax could win.

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Calgary realized the commerical value of the commonwealth games and dropped out of the domestic biding. Halifax was awarded the boobie prize. We were sent the games by a very politically wise Paul Martin to lose the international bid to Abuja plane and simple.

Sigh....yet again, another assumption. Calgary dropped out because it felt that it did not have enough time to make a detailed analysis in time for the Canadian bidding process to bid for the 2014 Commonwealth Games internationally.

Are you retarded? You have a liking of putting two and two together and making assumptions up. What does Paul Martin have to do with this? The organization that decides on who bids for Canada is a non-profit and non-government organization, which chose Halifax simply because it felt this was the Maritimes opportunity to make something of themselves, to have a party, and actually do something; because this was the Maritimes' turn to represent Canada. In fact, that was the same opinion of the majority of Canadians here in GamesBids and several other forums.

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A contingency fund that the committee knows it will have to draw on becasue there are more cost overruns to come and the funding gates are closed in ottawa after the last round of begging to the feds.

You make it sound like that's a bad thing, that VANOC is conserving and being careful. VANOC is striking a balance between cost and embarrasing Canadians before the world with third rate facilities. A 7,000 seat arena is already being built in Vancouver, so we might as well use that arena anyway.

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The town of whistler cant afford a $ 50 million dollar arena???? With 20 million paid for by the committee and probably the province of BC would have and some of the highest property taxes in the entire country. So where is that 35,000 seat stadium that will not cost 200 million canadian with absolutely no cost overruns to build between 2007 and 2014 on land that has not even been purcahsed from the federal government?

Whistler is a resort-municipality with a population of 11,000 which already has other Olympic priorities and it already has two arenas.

Like I've said before, cost overruns are a fact of life and a world phenomonom. You simply can't curl up your arms and say you're not gonna do anything but sit there and watch as the world grows while you just sit there. It's the same too laid back attitude that is stunting economic growth in Canada and particularly in the Maritimes. Residents of Vancouver today have no regrets that we hosted Expo '86, because it changed who we are and how we look at ourselves as a city. It's the same with the 2010 Olympics....recent polls show a 83% approval rating across the province of BC even with the recent news of cost overruns.

This event has the potential to jump boost the economy of the Maritimes, and the Commonwealth Games are the right size of event for the region.

Like I said before, if venues proof to be too much of a financial burden for the region then you can build TEMPORARY venues. You can easily build a 35,000 seat stadium with complete or partial temporary seating, with a fraction of the $200 million cost. Looking at the costs of a 20,000 seat stadium in Toronto, pegged at $80 million, you can probably build a really simple 35,000 permanent seat stadium with no roofing for $140 million.

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No wonder you have the dream views you do after all you are from the Left coast. LOL

No wonder why the Nova Scotian economy is rotting like a dead cow....because you aren't willing to take risks. That's life, you take risks.