23 replies to this topic

[arwebb]

Interested to know what our German colleagues in particular make of the situation and the fact that it appears they're having to pick up most of the tab.

[Citius Altius Fortius]

well, I think the complete world is still suffering under the financial crisis - the countries of the Eurozone are of course a part of this world - and every nations has to do its homework - I believe one of the major mistakes at the implementation of the Euro was that the politicians didn't make a complete step, but a half one only - a common currency just works with a shared tax, economy and administrations...

[oakydoky]

Couth African Force, on 01 October 2011 - 08:38 AM, said:

well, I think the complete world is still suffering under the financial crisis - the countries of the Eurozone are of course a part of this world - and every nations has to do its homework - I believe one of the major mistakes at the implementation of the Euro was that the politicians didn't make a complete step, but a half one only - a common currency just works with a shared tax, economy and administrations...

Yep.

The Eurozone has been based on only economic relationships. And when the **** hits the fan as it has done, it exposes the fragility of the relationships between nations.

For the last fifty years or so, Europe should have been educating its citizens on the need to integrate -- there can't just be an economic relationship but one which goes to the heart of the dynamics within culture and where Europe acts as a united body.

I know from several sources within German politics there's great resentment over what's happening. Greece, the poster-child for Eurozone related trouble, was basically getting money from German, France etc to a disproportionate level to what their economy actually produced. Thus, Greeks became accustomed to a lifestyle which without German money in particular, they would not have received. And this is all the while German's have been having to live by economic austerity measures.

Further, many within the German establishment are pissed off with the UK. On the one hand, the UK wants to have a say in Europe and because of its economic power is granted that. But the UK hasn't commited to the Euro project via say the shared currency and thus is seen to be stifling it.

[jawnbc]

Greece defrauded the EU to get into the Euro. Greece continued to defraud the EU by submitting bogus reports about compliance. Greeks were PROUD of their ability to avoid paying tax. And now the poop's hit the fan. Well too bad: wear it, smell it, taste it.

Kick them out of the Euro since there's no way they'll ever pay back what they've stolen.

No other Eurozone country has so persistently, perniciously demonstrated their contempt for integrity as successive Greek régimes have. Let the honorable nations of the Eurozone work TOGETHER.

Argentina survived a default. As have others.

[arwebb]

Couth African Force, on 01 October 2011 - 08:38 AM, said:

well, I think the complete world is still suffering under the financial crisis - the countries of the Eurozone are of course a part of this world - and every nations has to do its homework - I believe one of the major mistakes at the implementation of the Euro was that the politicians didn't make a complete step, but a half one only - a common currency just works with a shared tax, economy and administrations...

In short, the chickens have come home to roost, have they not? The only way a single currency can work properly is with far closer political integration than is currently the case in Europe and with that outcome being so undesirable to so many, an event like this happening starts to appear inevitable in retrospect. I have great sympathy with those Germans who are opposed to their government leading the bailouts to clear up a problem that is not theirs and I agree with Jawnbc's view that Greece should leave the Euro. Of course, that won't happen because of the loss of political face that would incur.

That brings me to the 'half-step' point, and Oakydoky's point about teaching the cause of integration. It seems to me that the problem supporters of closer union have now is that the current situation gives the impression that integration per se is flawed. Closer integration to prevent a repeat of the Greek crisis? Good luck selling that proposition.

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Further, many within the German establishment are pissed off with the UK. On the one hand, the UK wants to have a say in Europe and because of its economic power is granted that. But the UK hasn't commited to the Euro project via say the shared currency and thus is seen to be stifling it.

There is a very good reason why that is the case and that is that, as far as the Euro is concerned, successive British governments have done what any government of any nation should do and have acted primarily in their national interests. Why should we do something that is wrong for our country and our people to benefit an idea that large swathes of our people don't support?

[oakydoky]

arwebb, on 02 October 2011 - 05:29 PM, said:

There is a very good reason why that is the case and that is that, as far as the Euro is concerned, successive British governments have done what any government of any nation should do and have acted primarily in their national interests. Why should we do something that is wrong for our country and our people to benefit an idea that large swathes of our people don't support?

All nations are egoistical. That means they all act in ways to benefit themselves according to the circumstances they are in.

And clearly, Europe's problems are related to the fact that beneath the economic relationships, there has been no stable political-unified base.Thus, when a crisis emerges, it exposes the flawed relation for all it's worth with money at the centre of it.

I think Britain has acted according to what it perceived to be the best option for it. True. But ultimately, if Europe does not integrate, I believe the fallout from this 'crisis' will be of epic (and negative) consequence. A survey by ZEIT ONLINE has found that Britons are overwhelmingly opposed to the idea of a federal European superstate.We British have always been the biggest Euro sceptics.

But I think humanity is reaching a new zenith. This idea that we'll all just keep plundering the earth, making needless products that no-one needs but we're told to want so as to further this thing called 'capitalism', will have to come to an end. Our economy (the whole world) will need to become that of a reasonable economy -- we only use what we need with respect to the environment etc. And with the massive social unrest revealing itself around the world, clearly people I think are aspiring for more social justice.My only reason for pointing this out is that if Britain tries to isolate itself from the world (or any nation for that matter), we will only harm ourselves. Humanity is at a point where we need to integrate together based on respectful, fair and mutual relations. Thus, if Europe were to collapse, the fallout would be messy -- Germany would call in its debts and perhaps resort to arms to do so. Stuff like that is inevitable. So, Europe has to integrate. And if the politicians were wise, they would have been teaching this for the past 50 years.

[arwebb]

I don't see it as a question of isolating oneself from Europe or anywhere else. It simply boils down to a belief in being in charge of one's own destiny as a country. It should come as absolutely no surprise to anybody that a clear majority of Britons oppose a federal Europe. It has been that way for decades now and there are two main bases for it.

One is our history as an imperial power and the feeling that Britain is both strong enough now and going forward to stand on its own two feet as a sovereign, independent state with a role to play in the world and not as merely a state within a United States of Europe. The other is the development of the European insitutions since our entry in 1973 and the widespread belief that our sovereignty has been consistenly eroded by those institutions since the 1975 referendum while the British people have consistently been denied a say on the issue.

Of course, it is inevitable that ever-increasing globalisation will have an impact on Britain and I doubt that even the most rabid Euro-sceptic believes that we can live in perfect isolation. But I firmly believe that the more control we have on our own affairs, and thus staying outside the Euro, has been and continues to be right for our country and I think it is the interests of all sides of the debate that the issue is settled once and for all.

[Citius Altius Fortius]

well - I think the situation of the "today's world" with its financial crisis and the globalisation show that even strong nations like the USA are not "strong enough" to "stand alone" in a world, where multi-national-companies/rating companies have more power than national parliaments and governments - especially when at the same time a communist country offers the largest market, since the "own markets" are saturated or are based on the thinking that you can do debts all the time and not thinking of paying the credits back first...

Edited by Couth African Force, 03 October 2011 - 09:00 AM.

[oakydoky]

Couth African Force, on 03 October 2011 - 08:03 AM, said:

well - I think the situation of the "today's world" with its financial crisis and the globalisation show that even strong nations like the USA are not "strong enough" to "stand alone" in a world, where multi-national-companies/rating companies have more power than national parliaments and governments - especially when at the same time a communist country offers the largest market, since the "own markets" are saturated or are based on the thinking that you can do debts all the time and not thinking of paying the credits back first...

I agree. Nature is compelling humanity towards integration. Thus the old world order of capitalism and exploiting natural resources and people will have to end.90% of the products we use require oil. But oil is a finite resource and it's running out. So what will humanity do when they can no longer manufacture goods for their economy since there's no oil? And let's face it, 90%+ of the goods we use are non-essential: they are stuff we are told to want.The point is that all nations will have to acknowledge the globalised world and relations of the world. And if a country tries to exploit another via isolation and still trying to act in the ol' capitalist way, then that nation will only harm itself.

[Citius Altius Fortius]

I think it is important how is your self-conception - capitalism is like every "-ism" in philosophy/politics too dogmatic, like communism, fundalmentalism, etc. etc...

Yes, we need a free market, but every free market has to have rules, too (like e.g. common measures of unit - e.g. a kg is everywhere a kg or lbs is everywhere the same lbs) - otherwise markets won't work - due economy is already a global business national parliaments and governments have lost a lot of their former powers and no state/government is/will able to do the job, which they have in a democracy...