45 replies to this topic

[olympian]

baron-pierreIV, on 23 April 2010 - 08:02 AM, said:

well, regardless of how strongly you feel, it DOESN'T always work out that way. ROTATION IS a very strong factor. And after 3 attempts, and Munich already having been a summer host, I really don't see how PC can be denied a 3rd time. Munich could wait its turn.

awarding an olympic bid should be about merits. PC doesn't have that at all. if detroits can be denied sixth consecutive times I'm sure PC can be denied for a third time. a good bid does not deserve to wait it turn at all. unless there's no good bid at all that's when PC should throw its hat on the ring.

Detroit was denied six times. If it happend before, it can happen again. Heck, Paris was already denied thrice with 2 bid in succession.

[baron-pierreIV]

olympian, on 24 April 2010 - 02:03 AM, said:

Detroit was denied six times. If it happend before, it can happen again. Heck, Paris was already denied thrice with 2 bid in succession.

On the other hand, u know that Los Angeles won the 2x after 3 consecutive tries...also in BOTH instances?

Detroit was denied during Brundage's time when I think he purposely avoided any hint of conflict of interest (which the late JAS didn't seem to shy away from at all); and Paris (and Detroit) come from 2 countries that host often enough. The other one hasn't.

And we all know why AND how Paris lost for 1992. Were it not for the double-dealing Samaranch, Paris might actually have won 1992 had the non-lamentable Juan Antonio not abused his executive privilege and had the Summer City vote taken place first. In place of that checkmate, the French were given a Winter Games instead -- even though the French had just hosted 24 years before. So in the overall context of winning and losing, I hardly think Paris' misses were a total loss. They were flummoxed in 1986..but here they are bidding again.

Edited by baron-pierreIV, 24 April 2010 - 09:03 AM.

[fox334]

If we where to give the winter games purely based on how enthusiastic the crowd is we might as well give that one to Munich, or better still give it permanently to Vancouver (^^). However, that's not quite how it works, ESPECIALLY since this is the winter games, not the summer games. Turin won because Switzerland wasn't in the IOC's favors, Vancouver won because too many Europeans cities where lining up and Sochi won, well, by showing a LOT of money to the IOC (seriously, the 2014 games are NOT fiscally responsible).

Right now there is a crowd of European countries lining up for a 2020 bid. Letting Munich or Anecy win would give too much of a fighting chance to Tokyo. That said, I also agree that Germany is LONG overdo another crack at the winter games. Although they will sweep all the sliding gold if they get it (seriously, if you taught Canada was bad whit pipe time, you haven't heard of the Germans and of the 2008 FIBT worlds...).

[Rei]

fox334, on 24 April 2010 - 07:43 AM, said:

Turin won because Switzerland wasn't in the IOC's favors..

Well, this point has been so overused.. There's also propaganda into it, especially from the Swiss and it's curious taken that Sion was seen as the leading favourite by most.

Torino surely gained points from propitious circumstances (well, who didn't?)... as well from its own skills, though.

And looking at what the Winters has become nowadays it looks claer that Torino was the future and Sion the past.

[fox334]

Rei, on 24 April 2010 - 09:38 AM, said:

Well, this point has been so overused.. There's also propaganda into it, especially from the Swiss and it's curious taken that Sion was seen as the leading favourite by most.

Torino surely gained points from propitious circumstances (well, who didn't?)... as well from its own skills, though.

And looking at what the Winters has become nowadays it looks claer that Torino was the future and Sion the past.

I guess its true. However, I am sure the SLC scandal swung some votes. Does it explain the dozen vote sting between Turino and Sion? I doubt we will ever know, tough its far from impossible.

However, I think the most blatant example in recent memory was 2010. Vancouver won (and also nearly lost) due to Europe's desire to have 2012 and the fact that many IOC members really don't care about the winter games.

[4seasonscentre]

baron-pierreIV, on 24 April 2010 - 07:27 AM, said:

And we all know why AND how Paris lost for 1992. Were it not for the double-dealing Samaranch, Paris might actually have won 1992 had the non-lamentable Juan Antonio not abused his executive privilege and had the Summer City vote taken place first. In place of that checkmate, the French were given a Winter Games instead -- even though the French had just hosted 24 years before. So in the overall context of winning and losing, I hardly think Paris' misses were a total loss. They were flummoxed in 1986..but here they are bidding again.

This was before my time. Did JAS just stay on as President during the selection phase?

[baron-pierreIV]

4seasonscentre, on 24 April 2010 - 12:44 PM, said:

This was before my time. Did JAS just stay on as President during the selection phase?

When the 1992 vote took place in 1986, he was already into his 6th year of the IOC presidency. But because his native Barcelona was running vs. Paris and in the presentation stage, Paris seemed to have stolen the thunder from Barcelona, the Barcelona forces (of course with the silent blessing of El Jefe) campaigned heavily overnight for Albertville (a very poor technical bid vs. Falun) so that an Albertville victory at first would've deprived Paris of a victory. So not only was Paris finagled out of a win by Samaranch tinkering with the order of winner announcements, but Falun, the early winter favorite, in effect also became the sacrifical lamb of JAS' ambitions so that his Barcelona could prevail.

It was like the cleverest of SUVIVOR! immunity vote moves!!

Read the full details in Chapter 4 of my book!!

Edited by baron-pierreIV, 24 April 2010 - 02:35 PM.

[olympian]

4seasonscentre, on 24 April 2010 - 12:44 PM, said:

This was before my time. Did JAS just stay on as President during the selection phase?

read The Great Olympic Swindle by Andrew Jennings. Its all detailed there how JAS made sure Barcelona gets 1992 and Albertville the OWG when Falun was the better bid. 1992 was supposed to be Falun's games.

baron-pierreIV, on 24 April 2010 - 07:27 AM, said:

On the other hand, u know that Los Angeles won the 2x after 3 consecutive tries...also in BOTH instances?

1984 LA was sole bidder and at the same time it was only their 2nd consecutive bid when they landed the rights by default in 1984. Detroit was the candidate for 1972 FYI. So LA only won once after 3 tries. LA 1932 was also a victory by default as there were no bidders. Both of LA's bid victories came uncontested.

[olympian]

maybe its time to let countries who competes or have competed in the winter olympics as well as Winter IF's be the only ones to vote during Winter Olympic voting. its not going to popular but at least for sure, no amount of subsidy from some big sponsors will sway certain blocs into voting.

Rei, on 24 April 2010 - 09:38 AM, said:

Well, this point has been so overused.. There's also propaganda into it, especially from the Swiss and it's curious taken that Sion was seen as the leading favourite by most.

Torino surely gained points from propitious circumstances (well, who didn't?)... as well from its own skills, though.

And looking at what the Winters has become nowadays it looks claer that Torino was the future and Sion the past.

this is not overused. people and sports writers attributes sion's lost to marc hodler who was the one who revealed the bribery scandal and some voters figured out the only way for them to get back to him is if they vote for sion's opponent which in this case was turin and we know how that turned out. sion was the odds-on favorite and ended up losing.

[mattperiolat]

baron-pierreIV, on 24 April 2010 - 02:26 PM, said:

When the 1992 vote took place in 1986, he was already into his 6th year of the IOC presidency. But because his native Barcelona was running vs. Paris and in the presentation stage, Paris seemed to have stolen the thunder from Barcelona, the Barcelona forces (of course with the silent blessing of El Jefe) campaigned heavily overnight for Albertville (a very poor technical bid vs. Falun) so that an Albertville victory at first would've deprived Paris of a victory. So not only was Paris finagled out of a win by Samaranch tinkering with the order of winner announcements, but Falun, the early winter favorite, in effect also became the sacrifical lamb of JAS' ambitions so that his Barcelona could prevail.

It was like the cleverest of SUVIVOR! immunity vote moves!!

Read the full details in Chapter 4 of my book!!

Pardon me for asking, but going over vote totals, it looks like Sofia was the favored city behind Albertville. How did Sweden figure into the mix?